Re: Bodenwöhr Waldwerk - Mtt Bf 109 K-4 assembly lines 1944 - 1945
 

last but not least, I was told to contact a man in Wertheim who is collector of items of Luftwaffe and specialist of these days.
Will do it this week.

Re: Bodenwöhr Waldwerk - Mtt Bf 109 K-4 assembly lines 1944 - 1945
 

the furniture company seems to be the key. They were founded in 1928.
Not a giant area. Did not find pics of the elder buildings up to now.

Re: Bodenwöhr Waldwerk - Mtt Bf 109 K-4 assembly lines 1944 - 1945
 

Hi Fliegerhorst,

I hope all French POW/Workers names are clearly indicated on the said bill. If that, can you please look for "Marcellin" family name? I know he was working on Me262 production in the area. After the war, durind the sixties and followings, he turned to be a very fine LW aircrafts modeller, up to the end...
Thanks for your help.
Regards,
Franck.

Re: Bodenwöhr Waldwerk - Mtt Bf 109 K-4 assembly lines 1944 - 1945
 

it was without names

but quite interesting was:
contact adress of Flumann, registry number of company etc.

there were non Me262 activities at Wertheim.

Wertheims "chief" airport was Giebelstadt, ca. 5o km near Würzburg.
Wertheim´s "junior" airport Dorndorf ca. 15km was planned to get a longer
runway for Me262. Wertheim never had Me262.
But Giebelstadt was famous for Me262.

Very interesting: in Wertheim there was a Stuka unit, which should
be stationned on Germany´s first carrier "Graf Zeppelin" .

So back to the furniture factory.
I will call friends or will call the company.
And will contact the collector. Both the photographer and the museum´s
director told me his name.

Re: Bodenwöhr Waldwerk - Mtt Bf 109 K-4 assembly lines 1944 - 1945
 

interesting by the way,
there was no postal adress on Flumann´s bill, simply Flumann GmbH Wertheim 2.
But Kreuzwertheim is Bavarian, other side of river.
Probably even on the bills it was tried to hide informations.

Once I worked for a company in Wertheim Bestenheid which was named Wertheim 2.
Hmmmm ....
Today I asked a former collegue and he told me that there were some Stukas
but far away from the airport on the plateau. There is the river "Main" harbour which is called Winterhafen, thus the Stukas were stored maximum 100m from the harbour.
The company´s plant was built in 1944, former boss is said having worked for
Speer. And I remember a one-man bunker at he harbour. Modern Wertheim Bestenheid built much later.
I wonder why the Stukas were there, far away from the 200m higher plateau.
Wertheim 2 would mean that Flumann had a plant there and the Möbelfabrik
would have been an additional partner?

Re: Bodenwöhr Waldwerk - Mtt Bf 109 K-4 assembly lines 1944 - 1945
 

Hallo Roland and Ouidjat,

Thanks for the pointer and...the follow-up;-))) Much appreciated.

But thanks to you, Fliegerhorst, the whole Wertheim Flugwerft and Mtt final assembly activities is coming back alive and kicking. Thanks so much for your time, your enthusiasm and the knowledge you convey to us from the people who saw those activities unfurl.

I will be back more in detail Wednsday as I'm on travel. In the mean time, any new additions will be highly appreciated.

Cheers
Marc

Re: Bodenwöhr Waldwerk - Mtt Bf 109 K-4 assembly lines 1944 - 1945
 

Summary:

Schlossberg Tunnel storage
Waldenhausen Tunnel storage
Kaffelstein tunnel no storage
Eichelsteige motor storage
November 44 bill 60 photos of French workers to Flumann Wertheim 2 which should
have been Wertheim Bestenheid
pictures taken in Kreuzwertheim in or close to furniture company of nowadays.
photographer told of wing etc repair and electronics repair

Re: Bodenwöhr Waldwerk - Mtt Bf 109 K-4 assembly lines 1944 - 1945
 

Hi Fliegerhorst,

you said you'll make some pictures of the former Wertheim airfield as well. Could you have a look if the so called "Kompensierscheibe" is still there and could you take some pictures of it. You can find it at this coordinates in Google maps : (49.75572879834715, 9.48593258857727) ( the dark circle in that grainfield). It was used to adjust the compasses.
That would be awesome.
Thank you very much for the new informations.

Best regards

Matthias

Re: Bodenwöhr Waldwerk - Mtt Bf 109 K-4 assembly lines 1944 - 1945
 

Hallo Herr xxx,

es ist tatsächlich so, daß in einem unserer Firmengebäude im Krieg
Flugzeugteile montiert oder hergestellt wurden. Leider liegen uns keine Dokumente vor.Ein früherer Mitarbeiter von uns, Herr xxx, Kreuzwertheim, kann Ihnen aber eventuell weiterhelfen, er weiß recht viel über diese Zeit.

Schöne Grüße aus Kreuzwertheim

-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Betreff: Geschichtsforschung

Sehr geehrte Damen und Herren,

Ich bin gerade dabei, ein wenig über die Geschichte Wertheims
bis zum Jahre 1945 vor allem die Luftfahrt betreffend zu recherchieren.
Hierbei bin ich auf die Flugzeugwerke Mannheim gestossen, auch Flumann
GmbH genannt. Diese sollen bei Ihnen oder neben Ihnen in Kreuzwertheim angesiedelt gewesen sein. Im Schlossbergtunnel unter der Burg wurden Flügel und Rümpfe gelagert. In einer Rechnung aus dem November 44 an Flumann ist als Anschrift Wertheim 2 genannt, was aber kaum Kreuzwertheim gewesen wäre. Andererseits sollen in Kreuzwertheim nicht mehr existierende Hallen gestanden haben. Flügel- und Rumpfreparatur ME109. Können Sie mir bei der Heimatforschung behilflich sein? Haben Sie vielleicht sogar Originaldokumente aus jener Zeit?

Re: Bodenwöhr Waldwerk - Mtt Bf 109 K-4 assembly lines 1944 - 1945
 

Hello Masmar, i am living ca. 1km from that place. I know the farmers, their sons. There is a place where a flak tower shall be located. Some bushes etc., concrete rests. May be concrete rest of Kompensierscheibe.
Must walk there since it´s surrounded by fields etc.

Thank Your for Your question. Me stupid was told by my parents that there was a wooden construction which could be turned to turn the airplains into the wind.

I just searches Kompensierscheibe in wikipedia and learned about the
magnetic failures of compasses and countermeasurements.

My grandfather, this is true! , and others removed the wooden parts
of the "Kompensierscheibe" to burn the wood in ovens.

My ancestors arrived at Wertheim in 1946 as refugees. Wood, papers, etc
all was used to burn and recycle.
My ancestors cooked with wood of the Kompensierscheibe!

In the old kitchen of the Fliegerhorst there is the kitchen of "Polizeischule" etc. The old sand stone buildings survived.

The old photographer has many pics of destroyed hangars.

Very interesting the old Wehrmacht depot with a road in the forest
and halt points very ca. 30m at the right side. a wall ca. 1m high.
people say for the airplanes, storing fuel and/or ammunition in open air
places.
It´s called "the old Wehrmacht" depot.

Re: Bodenwöhr Waldwerk - Mtt Bf 109 K-4 assembly lines 1944 - 1945
 

I just dicussed Kompensierscheibe with my mother aged soon 73.
There was also a flak tower near Vockenrot. Vockenrot celebrated 70
years of becoming "suburb" of Wertheim several weeks ago.
People had pictures as "Flakhelfer".
will check.

Re: Bodenwöhr Waldwerk - Mtt Bf 109 K-4 assembly lines 1944 - 1945
 

Fliegerhorst,

could you please check out how the Bf 109s found their way from the western mouth of Schlossberg tunnel to Wertheim airfield? Bf 109 fuselages could be towed on their undercarriages which is rather easy on flat ground or downhill, but from Schlossberg tunnel to the airfield there are about 200 meters difference in height. Too much to be towed, imo.

If there is no airfield railway in Wertheim - bigger Fliegerhorste had those railways - maybe an other airfield close to Wertheim was suited to make the birds airborne?

Obertraubling-Stauffen e.g. had such a railway for the Me 262. The Bf 109s were towed from Hagelstadt-Gauting on their own landing gears.

Regards

Roland

Re: Bodenwöhr Waldwerk - Mtt Bf 109 K-4 assembly lines 1944 - 1945
 

Hallo Roland,

I tried to call the man, I should call on recommendation of the lady working for the furniture company.
I did not find traces of an assembly at the moment.
Repair and production of parts that´s for sure. "Spessart oak" is famous as You know. The location in Kreuzwertheim was at least supplier and repair.
Ok, the motors. The puzzle does not fit up to now.

See on google maps Neue Steige and Alte Steige. railway immpossible at all.
Wertheims partner runway in Dorndorf had a railway which disappeared.
15kms by air, 20by road, by train 28km to Miltenberg, then to Walldürn via
Amorbach and then airfield railway. should by minimum 60 kilometers.
Direction to Mannheim or Neckarelz.

Tomorrow I try to reach the collector.

Re: Bodenwöhr Waldwerk - Mtt Bf 109 K-4 assembly lines 1944 - 1945
 

i just called a friend´s father, aged 75.
interesting. There was the so called Flumann-Halle, may be 20-40 m large. close to the furniture company. This meakes sense and as we see the factory cooperated
obviously with Flumann. The building was removed for building a new kindergarden may be in the sixties.
Company Kümmerling used the building after the war as I was told.

Re: Bodenwöhr Waldwerk - Mtt Bf 109 K-4 assembly lines 1944 - 1945
 

the question is, new motors? From Neckarelz which would be withdrawal
from West to East through Odenwald?
Assembly planned?
New ones from Stuttgart?
Lauda is, had, big railway station, to Würzburg, to Wertheim, from/to Odenwald, to Stuttgart.
Wertheim was said to be good protected by Flak Tower "Turm" with stunning view over the Main/Tauber Valleys and the castle, also on Flumann factory

Re: Bodenwöhr Waldwerk - Mtt Bf 109 K-4 assembly lines 1944 - 1945
 

Hi together,
for today I planned to visit the Cham town archive to have a look on the collection on the Cham-Michelsdorf airfield. I called the archivist Bullemer in order to announce my visit. He already published articles on that topic and made some intesely research. Unfortunately he told me, it wont be worth a visit, when trying to find some closer information or even pictures. The collection mostly consists of some interviews with contemporary witnesses whose information Bullemer already published in his books like "Kriegsende in Cham". He told me, that a short time ago he recieved three more pictures with destroyed Bf 109 on them from a citizen. He published those pictures together with some further information in a larger collection of end-war-stories from the Cham area. I'll try to get that book from a local library. Apart from that, the track ends here again:-(

Fliegerhorst, what about your investigations? More luck with that collector?
You still owe us some pictures I think;-)

Best regards

Matthias

Re: Bodenwöhr Waldwerk - Mtt Bf 109 K-4 assembly lines 1944 - 1945
 

Hello to all,

Sorry for the long silence, Fliegerhorst, but rather working on a 12 hours a day schedule currently, and thus no time to be back to you with all the new informations you gave us. Thanks for them. Any new pictures to add on the Wertheim Flumann GmbH issue?

Masmar,
Thanks for your report on your efforts regarding the Cham-Michelsdorf airfield. It would be great to have those three photos here for sharing what new informations they can shed on the Bodenwöhr production.

Not exactly in the same line as our topic but yet interesting, I rediscovered those picture of the Erla Leipzig production hall as found by the US Army in 1945;

http://images.google.com/hosted/life...d57ac0d0704948
http://images.google.com/hosted/life...59c07189da8c11
http://images.google.com/hosted/life...805de30e3c3d48


Though no K-4 models can be recognized, one can see Bf 109 G-10 fuselages among the wrecked hangar ceiling, again with only their lower engine bearers mounted; the upper ones, being part of the DB 605 D "power-egg" package as seen on the Wertheim Eichelsteg picture, are amiss as the engines (again engineless fuselages: another pointer for DB 605 D supply lines trouble?).

I'm still hopeful for some new informations to keep up the given impetus on all thse Waldwerke issues. Who knows: with Christmas time coming, maybe we'll have some extra free time to delve deeper in this fascinating subject....

Cheers
Marc

Re: Bodenwöhr Waldwerk - Mtt Bf 109 K-4 assembly lines 1944 - 1945
 

Hi guys, wish you all the best in 2010!

Seems that we reached the end of the information-line avaiable at the moment, but I think we really did a great job so far.
I think I will get the above mentioned book on the Michelsdorf airfield the next weeks and will post the three pics which could be found in it then.

The whole discussion inspired me to do some scale modelling, since I'm not able to do aircraft profiles:) Over the holidays I found some time to go about it and now I want to share the output with you.
Thats my interpretation of the Bodenwöhr K-4 pattern with RLM 81/83 76 finish and bare aluminium on the underside of the fuselage. Here no extension kits were used, all supplementary parts was build by my own except of the DB605 of course.
The other model is a fictitious K-4 finished with RLM76 snake and RLM 82 intead of 83.
All colors except the late-war-yellowish-RLM76 were mixed with the help of coloured relics, found on the areal of the Bodenwöhr Waldwerk:) !!!
By time I will finish the diorama bases for both models.

Hope you'll enjoy it

Greez
Matthias

Re: Bodenwöhr Waldwerk - Mtt Bf 109 K-4 assembly lines 1944 - 1945
 

Hi there Masmar,

Thanks for your excellent model shots. Congrats for them, the Bodenwöhr snake pattern is really nicely represented. As a former modeller myself, I truely enjoy them. Looking forward to see more of them!

Cheers
Marc

Re: Bodenwöhr Waldwerk - Mtt Bf 109 K-4 assembly lines 1944 - 1945
 

Hello there!

I am pondering since yesterday over this pic, found by ed:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...m=220535747152

I do have the strong impression it depicts the dumped Bf 109 K-4 fuselages at Vilseck-Heringnohe, the one pile also published by Hideki Noro in "LO*ST", pic. 139. Though lighting is adverse, I still can identify at least two Bf 109K-4 fuselages for sure; they are the ones sticking out of the pile against the sky. Note also the overturned Me 262 fuselage on the far right of the pile.

One wonders how many other pictures will surface...

Cheers
Marc

Re: Bodenwöhr Waldwerk - Mtt Bf 109 K-4 assembly lines 1944 - 1945
 

Hi Marc,
thank you very much for posting. Didn't spot it before.
I think you are very right. In my opinion also a good indicator is the fuselage on the left side on top of the pile, wearing the RLM76 snake? The undersides are unpainted.

Good to see, that still pictures showing up, affecting our "little" discussion. Great!
I'll comming up with the Cham-Michelsdorf pictures next week, since I'll get the book on Monday.

See the following link. An interesting essay about the End of War and Messerschmitt production in Regensburg with pictures of 109s and one fw 190:
http://www.gallagher.com/ww2/chapter22.html

Matthias

Re: Bodenwöhr Waldwerk - Mtt Bf 109 K-4 assembly lines 1944 - 1945
 

Hallo Masmar,

I couldn't identify for 100% the snake pattern on those fuselages, but fully concur for the unpainted undersides.

Looking forward with eagerness to discover those three pictures form the Cham-Michelsdorf book!

Thanks for your link; I cannot add anything to the Bf 109 G's; as for the FW 190 D-9, it just has been published by Jerry Crandall in his excellent volume II of the "Focke-Wulf FW 190 Dora" publication, p. 152. This machine is a D-9, W.Nr 211904, found in Würzburg.

Cheers
Marc

Re: Bodenwöhr Waldwerk - Mtt Bf 109 K-4 assembly lines 1944 - 1945
 

Hi Marc,
see the following display detail. I enlarged this section and increased the contrast a bit. I think there are two lighter, wavy stripes visible, running left and right of the Balkenkreuz. While the Balkenkreuz itself is grounded with a darker colour (RLM81).

Re: Bodenwöhr Waldwerk - Mtt Bf 109 K-4 assembly lines 1944 - 1945
 

Today I recieved the book "Beiträge zur Geschichte im Landkreis Cham" Band 23 ("contribution on the history of the district of Cham" edition 23 ), where on pages 203-212 a short essay on the Cham-Michelsdorf airfield can be found, including for pictures taken by the U.S army. The pointer was given to me by the author himself who has published dozens of articles on the history of this town in east bavaria.
I opend up the book today and I was overjoyed. I saw more than I hoped to see.
But have a look on your own:
The first pics are two overview pictures of the airfield including the Messerschmitt production site, were the wings were attached to the fuselages delivered from Waldwerk Bodenwöhr.
The third showing a virgin K4- in front of a G-14 and a FW190, destroyed by the U.S. troops (see the Bodenwöhr-painting-style on the K-4,:-) )
The fourth picture is showing another 109, a FW190 A?-8 and a D-9 behind them.

Re: Bodenwöhr Waldwerk - Mtt Bf 109 K-4 assembly lines 1944 - 1945
 

Hallo Matthias!

Thanks for sharing thse outstanding pics! The overview ones are excellent! Every step of the final assembly and test flying process is full and obvious, what a marvel!

As for the burnt out Bf 109 K-4, yes the snake pattern is great! As for the W.Nr., I tend to read 335141.

Great also to see a Fw 190D-9 with a Stkz, ?S+DH. Note that it has the old style canopy. Any chance to have a higher-res picture in order ot see its W.Nr?
The Fw 190 "White or Yellow 2" does seem to be an elderly A-4 type machine, with the rear part of the stylized black eagle motive showing behind the exhaust stacks.

As for the burnt out Bf 109 G "Brown 6", it is for me impossible to precise the subtype from what is visible G-6, G-10 or G-14... Anybody has better clues?

Thanks again for sharing those great pictures, Matthias! They make me wonder how many more are yet to be discovered among the ones taken by the US Signal Corps; alas, they are not yet on Footnote.com....

Cheers
Marc

Re: Bodenwöhr Waldwerk - Mtt Bf 109 K-4 assembly lines 1944 - 1945
 

Hello all,

Several additional points on these exciting photos:

Bf 109 K-4 WNr. 335141 also has its WNr. on the tip of its wooden fin.

Fw 190 2+, with the JG 2 Eagle motif, has A-7/A-8 wings with its pitot tube on the right wingtip.

Bf 109 G 6+ has a “0” (the last numeral of its WNr.) on its wooden fin.


Steve Sheflin

Re: Bodenwöhr Waldwerk - Mtt Bf 109 K-4 assembly lines 1944 - 1945
 

Hello Steve,

thank you for those additions.
So "brown 6" is a G6, thanks for that one.

The G-14 seems to wear the number "2043" under it's swastika.
The D-9 is a 210034.
It's a little better with the original print, but that's the best my scanner can do.

Matthias

Re: Bodenwöhr Waldwerk - Mtt Bf 109 K-4 assembly lines 1944 - 1945
 

Hi there Steve,

- Agreed for the K-4 W.Nr repetition on the fin except that the blow-up just posted by Matthias over at LEMB does show beyond doubt an 6141 on the rear fuselage... This would then point to an hitherto unheard of W.Nr 336 141... Houston, we have a problem ;-))

http://www.luftwaffe-experten.org/fo...=0&#entry52062

- Great, for the Fw 190, I was really at a loss for identifying it more precisely; Erich, in the same LEMB thread, also points for a late war model.

- "Brown 6": yep, correct, I didn't notice it sticking out beyond the right tailplane. Thanks!


Matthias,

To my knowledge, no way pinpointing the precise subtype of "Brown or Blue 6": nothing conclusive can be said beyond tying it down to the G-6, 10 or 14 subtype... (and with my usual luck, I will be told it was a...G-8;-))

Fw 109D-9 W.Nr. 210034: very interesting, this machine was totally undocumented so far, both by Jerry Crandall or by Eric Larger and al. A great new addition!

Cheers
Marc

Re: Bodenwöhr Waldwerk - Mtt Bf 109 K-4 assembly lines 1944 - 1945
 

Hello All,

What's the warning triangle above (and rear) the cross on "Brown/Blue/Green 6"? Never seen this before... Or never took care.
Regards, Franck.

Re: Bodenwöhr Waldwerk - Mtt Bf 109 K-4 assembly lines 1944 - 1945
 

Salut Franck,

It's the octane triangle for the starter fuel tank which fuel cap is located there. Jean-Claude Mermet does explain it in its excellent publication on the Bf 109 G- K (Spécial Aéro Journal 1, 2009).

Cheers
Marc

Re: Bodenwöhr Waldwerk - Mtt Bf 109 K-4 assembly lines 1944 - 1945
 

Thanks, Matthias, for this exceptional photos! This confirms my view that the whole Northern Bavarian a/c production and Luftwaffe complex mostly is still terra incognita for most experts.
Very interesting is the airview of the Cham-Michelsdorf site and how it takes advantage of this tiny patch of forest to conceal the production facilities. The forest is still existing, btw:
http://www.geodaten.bayern.de/Bayern...yer=DOP&step=1
I think, the K-4 photo is the proof where the "snake" camo comes from: It has to be the Mtt Bodenwöhr-Mappach and Cham-Michelsdorf production line and the Bf 109s produced here show different features in comparison to "Bürg"-Flossenbürg and Vilseck-Heringnohe prodeced K-4s like there are:

- Flossenbürg: Big W.Nr. stencil at the bottom of the rudder (my post #32), last three letters repeated crudely hand-painted at the end of the fuselage (necessary before adding the pre-fabricated tail unit)
- Cham: Small W.Nr. stencil at the top of the tailfin, last four letters repeated as a stencil at the end of the fuselage (necessary before adding the pre-fabricated tail unit)

The "snake" is obviously applied to unify the different camoes of Tail unit and fuselage. Even the brightly camoed engine cover gets some spraying in a darker tone. The question is whether Flossenbürg and Cham used different pre-fabricated fuselages (Mauthausen-Gusen?); perhaps "Bürg"-Flossenbürg had a complete independent production (Just an attempt to explain the fuselage piles). One fact is - Cham and Flossenbürg use the same tail units and engine covers - but they treat them differently.

Concerning the high W.Nr. - Schmoll doesn´t list it - Schmoll compiled his list based on production files and acceptance flight logs. Especially for Cham there might be considerable gaps towards the end of the war. We even don´t know the W.Nrn. of the Bf 109K-4s of post #32 and the production at Cham ceased earlier than at Flossenbürg.

The Fw 190D-9 interestingly shows the smaller late-war Stammkennzeichen - the Ta 152C-0 CI+XM being a well-known example for those letters.
To the right of the 2nd pic there seems to stand a damaged DC-3 transport (tailwheel or tail unit collapsed?)

Btw, I´m trying to get access to the KZ Flossenbürg archives, but this is a delicate task. It is easier to get information about the suffering people than about their products by slave-labour and you´re easily put into the wrong corner if you make a mistake...

Regards

Roland

Re: Bodenwöhr Waldwerk - Mtt Bf 109 K-4 assembly lines 1944 - 1945
 

Hi there Roland,

Glad to read your thoughts again on this ever increasing topic. The Bodenwöhr snake pattern is a real treat on the K-4 which W.Nr looks so tantalizingly to be 3336 141....

To expand this great topic even further, a stay at the NARA would be most welcome in order to flush out all the thousands of Signal Corps pictures taken between April and Winter 1945; my bet is that many more pics are still waiting to be discovered. This would be by far the best method to rationalize all visual clues they do harbour and build up the clearest possible production pattern.

Wish you all the best for your KZ Flossenbürg archives access.

Cheers
Marc

PS: to all interested people: what do you see as a W. Nr on the blow up of this burnt out Bf 109 K-4 as kindly posted by Matthias over at LEMB?

http://www.luftwaffe-experten.org/fo...showtopic=9649 post #16

Re: Bodenwöhr Waldwerk - Mtt Bf 109 K-4 assembly lines 1944 - 1945
 

Salut Marc,
Thanks first for the answer; seems it's not enough to say it's a Bf109G-6/G-14 or G-10... Hence, I never saw it before!
Regarding the WNr. I agree the Number low circle seems to be open hence a 5. BUT You can't stencil whatever letter or number with a full closed ring: the central part will fall!!! Hence the aperture. But if you look at the horizontal upper bar it's curved, not straigh: can't be a five.
At first glance I saw a 6 and definitly it's a 6.

Or it's the famous Old story of Old men we both met together, once.
Cheers,
Franck.

Re: Bodenwöhr Waldwerk - Mtt Bf 109 K-4 assembly lines 1944 - 1945
 

Re, Franck!

You're most welcome; it is one of those rare occasion where I finally get something correct with my Bf 109 guesswork...

And many thanks for your very pertinent stencilling analysis; it is very correct. I remember one great excavation I did in a VIIth century byzantine church in Umm el Rasas, Jordan where I spent weeks stencilling numbers on all the fallen architectural blocks... I got there a real "in-deptht" course on the finer point of stencils patterns ;-)))

Cheers
Marc

Re: Bodenwöhr Waldwerk - Mtt Bf 109 K-4 assembly lines 1944 - 1945
 

Yes, at first glance I can see a 6141 with a slight horizontal gap to the left and eventually to the right - the "holders" of the inner circle presumably. But given the fact, that the stencil holders of any Mtt stencils I´ve checked are set out vertically according to the rules the horizontal gap points to a five, which is more likely. Unfortunately the eye sees what it wants to see and only the original copy of the photo may shed light on this problem.
Here´s the German stencil "Norm" DIN 1451 from 1947 which is identical to the 1943 standard:
http://ospublish.constantvzw.org/wp-...en_sample2.png

But I want to point you to an almost identical BF109K-4 depicted on p. 52-53 of JaPo´s "Messerschmitt Bf109K - camouflage and marking" standard. Unfortunately "snake" pattern and W.Nr. (partially) are obscured by the starboard wing, but the rest is an almost copy of 6(?)141:
- the same hasty spray of RLM 76(?) on the pre-fab rudder
- the usual prefab tailfin with stencilled blotches
- dark fuselage according to the OS-Liste
- rather bright engine cover with a high demarcation line. The caption talks about "mottling" of the cover sides, but a better photo copy depicted on p.194 of Schmoll´s Mtt factory book shows the same sloppy meandering camo sprays without interruption also seen on 6(?)141
- the visible parts of the stencilled W,Nr. (does not exclude 5800) are in the same position and have the same size like our Michelsdorf example

The caption of the original photo is "Me 109 # 5800 on yellow band with narrow red band. Munich May 1945". Indeed, the fuselage section behind ring 6 appears brighter and JaPo claim this parts - including the W.Nr. - as being taken from a G-14 as spare parts; yellow being a primer and red the filler paste covering the joints.

So my hypothesis would be as follows:
- 5800 and 6(?)141 share the same origin: the Bodenwöhr-Cham production line
- the aft part of 5800´s fuselage had been repaired (in Cham, using spares from the Bodenwöhr factory - 35km apart) due to damage of the prefabricated fuselage, but it is an original WNr. from the 335 batch. I´d exclude the G-14 theory because 6(?)141 is painted on the camo of a genuine K-4. The W.Nr. of 5800 was applied directly on a primer (maybe a late-war yellowish RLM 76). The red stripe might have been one of the ubiquitous unpainted tapes to conceal bad craftmanship
- 341 planes would have been produced between 5800 and 6141 - too much for the war´s end imho. (33)5800 is a rather high W.Nr., so (33)5141 is more probable imo.

Of course 336141 would be a sensation - maybe the original shows up...

Btw - I´ve checked the K-4 pics available to me. The medium 4-digit W.Nr. stencilled on the fuselage between bulkhead 7 and 9 is always connected with a small 6-digit W.Nr. at the top of the fin. The large 3-digit W.Nr. handpainted on the fuselage between bulkhead 6 and 8 is connected with a medium W.Nr. at the bottom of the rudder - always a question of available space.

It would be interesting if this would be a feature to distinguish Bf109s of the Bodenwöhr-Cham from those of the Flossenbürg-Vilseck production...

Your opinion?

Regards

Roland

Re: Bodenwöhr Waldwerk - Mtt Bf 109 K-4 assembly lines 1944 - 1945
 

Hi Rolland & Marc,
Yes it would be a big new; In fact, I don't want to see a 6, I'm not interesting in and I'm not prepared, yet, to check these production numbers since my notes are far to be complete. I'm not the only one, too, having read a 6. But I can accept a 5 too!! No problem, since each time I'm playing with light, contrast, each time I see a 5 or a 6. So Frankly... If production list are saying no one 336xxx have been produced, it's OK for me.
Cheers, Franck.

Re: Bodenwöhr Waldwerk - Mtt Bf 109 K-4 assembly lines 1944 - 1945
 

Roland, thanks a lot for your reasearch and for the pointer of the Bf109K-4 found in München-Riem. I didn't think of that one, but you are very right, it seems to be out of the same batch. The brighter colour bordering the Cockpit section points to a RLM81/82 painting, on the contrary the colours on 33 6/5 141 may be darker,like 81/83 ???. The rest of the pattern is almost identical.
It's a nice theory to use the position of the WNr. to differentiate between the K-4 production lines. I think we can already see a clear trend in this direction and maybe we'll find some more effidence for that. A really great perception!

For the WNr question, I'm already trying to get a better scan by the author, but I haven't got an answer so far. But I'll keep you all up to date.
Until I'm holding on a 5 rather then a 6 :) The gap breaking the rounding is way to big to be a fillet of the stencil and also the upper bar is way more horizontal than it would be with a 6. But the opinions differ on that case.

You are right 336141 would be a sensation.

Re: Bodenwöhr Waldwerk - Mtt Bf 109 K-4 assembly lines 1944 - 1945
 

Roland,

Wow, I can only bow and applaud to your brilliant W.Nr. synthesis: well done! This W.Nr variation acording to the factory involved is a big new thrill to add for all of us K-4 fans and it'll be one of the first thing I'll rush for every time I'll chance on a new K-4 pic. Simply great!

Beyond that, 5 or 6, Matthias, you are the solution - once you'll get the hoped for 300 dpi scan!

Cheers
Marc

Re: Bodenwöhr Waldwerk - Mtt Bf 109 K-4 assembly lines 1944 - 1945
 

Roland,

Armed with the knowledge you shared with us in post #111, I scourge the publications I have; and there it is: a new Bodenwöhr- Mappach Waldwerk Bf 109 K-4. This one was published in WOTBC 4:

Proulx, M. (2007), Wings of the Black Cross 4, Eagles Edition, p. 4.

The picture of Bf 109 K-4 W.NR. 33X XXX "Yellow 5", probably belonging to II. /JG 52, was taken in Ainring in 1945 and depicts clearly the snake pattern on the lower fuselage; together with the W.Nr. set above the tail Hakenkreuz is a clear pointer, again thanks to your research, to the Bodenwöhr Mappach Waldwerk production.

Cheers
Marc

Re: Bodenwöhr Waldwerk - Mtt Bf 109 K-4 assembly lines 1944 - 1945
 

Hi all,
today I found the following pictures on Ebay:
http://cgi.ebay.de/3-Fotos-Flugzeug-...item5885a5b073
This WNr. is a in Bodenwöhr built and in Cham-Michelsdorf test flown Bf109G14 (P.Schmoll).Probably the picture shows the aircraft standing on Cham-Michelsdorf. Unfortunately I wasn't able to clearly indentify the church in the background up to now.

Marc, thank you for the pic of the Bf 109 K-4 W.NR. 33X XXX "Yellow 5". It indeed seems to be a kind of a "snake", but with the difference that it's painted much more accurate. It seem, that they used a stecil instead of spraying free-hand. Very interesting.