Re: Top Fw 190 aces
 

Hi

I do have access to Russian losses. I used Nowotny's units claims to suggest who he was working his fiddle with. The one name that should have stood-out but didn't was Rudolf Rademacher, yet one that did was Gerhard Loos, as well as a known associates of his Anton Döbele and Karl Schnörrer. So even the myth about the most successful Schwarm would be incorrect. Same with Hermann Graf, Alfred Grislawski didn't actually have much contact with him within JG52, moreover Grislawski did very well later, while Graf did not.

I would have guess Tegtmeier was honest by his score pattern, and Kittel's though having many multiple in a day, is not that outrageous.

With Nowotny I believe he was in competition with Günther Rall, which he was always going to win, whatever Rall claimed, Nowotny would claim more, and you can see that Nowotny's accomplices were rewarded in claims themselves, in fact nowhere else have I seen such volumes of rewards, the only other groups to come anywhere near them are Emil Lang/Reinhold Hoffmann/Alfred Groß, then Max Stotz/Hans Hahn and Joachim Kirschner/Hans Grünberg, later with JG27 Heinrich Bartels, with Hermann Graf/Ernst Süß/Leopold Steonbatz/Johann Kalb/Hermann Wolf, and then Erich Rudorffer/Kurt Tangermann.

Rudorffer, Nowotny and Hahn used their authority and Kommandeur to abuse the system, as did Kirschner with JG27 only.

With Erich Hartmann it''s much less obvious, there is no association with Hans-joachim Birkner like we should find if the wingman theory is correct, but perhaps Herbert Bachnick and Werner Puls.

What are your opinions on:-

Rudolf Rademacher
Gerhard Thyben
Heinrich Sterr
Heinz Wernicke
Albin Wolf
Ulrich Wernitz
Werner Lucas
Werner-Kurt Brändle
Walter Oesau
Wolf Ettel
Walter Dahl
Viktor Bauer
Leopold Münster

Keep Well

Johannes

Re: Top Fw 190 aces
 

Good evening,

why do you think Soviet loss records are complete ?

Cheers,

Michael

Re: Top Fw 190 aces
 

Hi Michael

You pose an interesting question. Answer is I don't know if they are complete.
However if they were incomplete then it would be the same fate for all the great aces i.e all would be "over-claimers", but the work of Daniel and Gabor Horvath(verified victories-top JG52 aces over Hungary 1944-45. is quite clear that some pilots over-claimed a lot, others like Barkhorn and Lipfert were very accurate i.e their claims matched these Russian losses . It's the same for the mikrofilms.....there must be so much missing, but it's always the same pilots non-accounted for .....like Tanzer, all his comrades are matching what we expect, so why just his missing?

Research showed that Barkhorn "over-claimed" as he neared "300", but we now know that this period i.e 1945 not covered by the mikrofilms was basically not researchable as the dates and types provided were another Hans Ring game, this was proved by documentation that show four claims by Barkhorn not covered by his abschüßelist. Therefore it is very unlikely that Barkhorn suddenly started "over-claiming". It will be the same with Hartmann i.e the dates we have for him in 1945, are very likely to be largely incorrect, but unlike Barkhorn he did "over-claim" earlier, and is likely to have continued to do so.

Kind Regards

Johannes

Re: Top Fw 190 aces
 

For the periods later in the war (i.e. 1944-1945) when the Soviets were completely winning on the Eastern Front, when their records were not being stored in major population centers which were being bombed relentlessly (ex Berlin, see Verified Victories pages 18-19 for more information), when without accurate documentation the resupply of units would be impossible, when the excavation of aircraft wreckage and exhumation of fallen personnel matches 100% with the documents and their location contents, when not only the combat losses but also the write-off/accidents/ferry accidents/all-the-above are documented, when the receipts [HA! these are invoices!!!] of air frames and engines that are available for pickup at the specific BAO, when one is able to track the life journey of an individual air frame from the factory to the junk heap, when the in-and-out documents for units are available listing not only air frame numbers but also engine numbers, when (in this case moving to ground units) one has to go to Russian archives to gather information on Sherman tanks because the US Army did not keep its records on its own material (!), I'm probably missing a few ... that's when you know you re dealing with a complete loss record corpus.

To the points Johannes makes, exactly! Missing aircraft loss data in an archive that only affects 1 pilot is non-logical, it would affect a lot more than only 1 pilot... but this is not the case. Some pilots (again one will have to read into Verified Victories) even have what we called "unclaimed claims" confirmed by Soviet loss records, so the records don't only oppose the Luftwaffe documentation in ways which "hurt" the scores of pilots, but in cases they actually "boost" their scores [boost as in they CAN be verified! this is extremely exciting]. These cases occur when pilots write about their exploits yet don't have them listed in their claims lists (ex Lipfert and his Bf 109 claim or his drunken IL-2 claim or his Boston claim...

This is why we know the loss record is complete, because it contains losses for situations which one cannot even think/dream about, because it cover all scenarios with little/no errors, and that is the true reality of war.

Inversely, why do we know that the Luftwaffe losses are incomplete? Well because diaries and flight books and letters and personnel loss cards and a thousand other documents point to additional losses which are not described in the main loss record books (these and the fact that many were destroyed after the war). Well using these same type of diverse material on the VVS, one finds that the loss records contain all these losses, and in cases even more.

Cheers,

Gabor

Re: Top Fw 190 aces
 

Good afternoon,

the other day I heard that the Luftwaffe scored 45.000 Eastern front kills. Is it possible to estimate how many Soviet losses were atttributed to aerial combat and thereby calculate the general overclaiming average ?

Cheers,

Michael

Re: Top Fw 190 aces
 

At the risk of sounding like a broken record, Verified Victories: Top JG 52 Aces Over Hungary 1944-45, page 200, plus obviously the rest of the book :)

Cheers,
Gabor

Re: Top Fw 190 aces
 

Found it at the German amazon:
https://www.amazon.de/Verified-Victo...ps%2C97&sr=8-1

Have a nice weekend,

Michael

Re: Top Fw 190 aces
 

Yes, that's it. Have a nice weekend to you too.
Gabor

Re: Top Fw 190 aces
 

Hi Michael

Gabor has answered the question about hoe reliable Sowiet losses were. In additional he e.mailed me with some stark words i.e The sowiet losses are "amazingly detailed and absolute trustworthy"

Kind Regards

Johannes

Re: Top Fw 190 aces
 

Good evening Gentlemen,

OK...but JG52 is a pure Bf109 unit.
To resume the Fw190 topic: in March 1943 12./JG2 transitioned from Fw190 to Bf109. Was this before or after Georg-Peter Eder claimed his 8Mar Spitfire ?

Best greetings from Switzerland,

Michael

Re: Top Fw 190 aces
 

Hi Michael

The KBT papers recorded the claim number for high scoring pilots, and listed Lambert's last(Mustang) as his 103rd.

With regards to Rudorffer I have his flugbücher and can give you a definitive answer.

Nr. 1-39 and 72-73 were with the Bf109 = 41
Nr.40-71 and 74-207 were with the Fw190 = 166
Nr.208-219 were with the Me262 = 12

Five others unconfirmed = 224 claims in total, 219 confirmed. I'll check if I can do something with Günther Schack.

Kind Regards

Johannes

Re: Top Fw 190 aces
 

Hi Michael

Have looked at Günther Schack. It's not so clear cut. Firstly he himself states 167 confirmed claims i.e the four he got in 1945 he numbers 164-167. I added it up to 171 plus two unconfirmed(which he states were confirmed). Then this leistungsbuch does not mention aircraft flown, and ends at the end of May 1945, but then lists the last six !
Moreover do we have an exact date when he began flying the Fw190 ? Using the end of 1942 as the approximate date, it would put him on 23 using the Bf109 and 148 using the Fw190, but we would have to call this 148 + or at least 148 with the Fw190, and a maximum of 23 with the Bf109.

Kind Regards

Johannes

Re: Top Fw 190 aces
 

Good evening Johannes,

I've asked Russ Fahey, who collects logbooks, about Lambert, but he ain't got his one.

I have the same breakdown for Rudorffer.

Based on unit equipment, I believe that Schack flew a Bf109 until Oct42 and from Apr44, thereby flying a Fw190 from Dec42 until Feb44.
I do not understand your sentence "...and ends at the end of May 1945, but then lists the last six". Does the Leistungsbuch list six kills for 1945 ?

Best wishes and greetings from Switzerland, sincerely,

Michael

Re: Top Fw 190 aces
 

Hi Michael

As stated Schack's Leistungsbuch ends end May 1944, then there is a sheet of six vague entries, the first two appear to be two La-5's on the same day in December 1944, they have no times or numbers, whereas the last four all in February 1945 are numbered and times and dates given.

Thinking about it perhaps there were some later claims, but Schack was badly burned, and also a transfer to JG3, so personally I think the February ones were the last. I do believe Schack to be a honest claimer.

There is this problem for you of pilots switching aircraft type. Anton Hackl would use a Fw190 if against "viermots", but a Bf109 if he thought he was encountering fighters. But some Geschwader used only the Bf109.

Kind Regards

Johannes

Re: Top Fw 190 aces
 

Good evening Johannes,

apart from the two La-5's in Dec44, four claims in Feb45 and the claim on 7Apr45 have you ever heard about other Schack claims after 29Sep44 ?

Best greetings from Switzerland, sincerely,

Michael

Re: Top Fw 190 aces
 

Hi Michael

The April claim might very well not be correct, just an Ernst Obermaier quote. In Günther Josten's book he mentions another La-5 in February 1945, but not directly, as the Kommandeur's. Nothing else know.

I think Josten got his first eighty-eight with the Fw190, then moves onto the Bf109, but don't know if he moved back to the Fw190 later.

Kind Regards

Johannes

Re: Top Fw 190 aces
 

Good afternoon Johannes,

Schack: the 'traditional' Schack total score is 174. Your research revealed 165 well-defined claims between 23Jul41 and 29Sep44. After that period there seem to be seven less-well-defined claims (two in Dec44, four Feb45 plus the Apr45 which might not be valid). What about the missing two claims ? The date for his 100th kill is sometimes given a 3Sep43 which corresponds to the 98th claim in your list. May it be that there are two additional claims in the period up to Sep43 ?

Josten: I./JG51 transitioned from Fw190A to Bf109G in Feb44. According to John Weal Josten still flew the Fw190A in March. Therefore, I think he scored his first 84 kills in the Focke-Wulf. According to Leo Etgen IV./JG51 began conversion to Fw190A on 20Mar45. Therefore, I think that Josten scored his kills 163-178 in the Fw190A and D.

Have a good weekend, sincerely,

Michael

Re: Top Fw 190 aces
 

Hi Michael

The Schack "100"th 98 for my own list is because Schack has two further claims in his list on the same day that do not appear on the mikrofilms, moreover there are no anerk numbers missing.

Kind Regards

Johannes

P.S

Note then his numbering makes little sense for 1945.

Re: Top Fw 190 aces
 

Good evening Johannes,

the available Schack lists were a mess before you published your books.
Interestingly, the decisive kills for defining his Fw190 score were correct already then: 18./19. and 132./133.
Have you noticed that Wikipedia, which has adopted your list(s), indicates a wrong date (7Apr45) for the La-5 shot down SE of Heiligenbeil ?

I wish you a good start into the new week,

Michael

Re: Top Fw 190 aces
 

Hi Guys

Have just viewed the combat report for Heinrich Sterr for 27th March 1944 this document clearly states the four claims(the last of which was v.n.e-a.s.m) were his claims numbers 95-98 could be some were never confirmed, but of interest is that he was flying a Fw190 A 6, the first two were air witnesses, the last two ground witnesses.
Another document lists total claims by pilots of JG54 until 31st December 1944, and gives Sterr 128.....as I say I think some were unconfirmed, but this is surely where his total comes from.....possibly a false total that has been accepted over the years, but just don't know.

Kind Regards

Johannes

Re: Top Fw 190 aces
 

Good evening Johannes,

nice to hear from you. I'm still interested in Sterr. What we can safely say is that he had less than 100 claims in the Fw190 because he flew the Bf109 for his first 31 kills (April1942-March1943), correct ?

Best greetings from Switzerland,

Michael

Re: Top Fw 190 aces
 

Good afternoon Gentlemen,

I calculated a direct comparison between the Fw 190 and the Bf 109 based on weighted averages: the Focke-Wulf Fw 190 was heavier (142%), bigger (128%), had more horsepower (117%), larger wings (114%) and was a little bit faster (103%). The Messerschmitt Bf 109 climbed better (134%), could fly higher (116%), was a little bit heavier armed (109%) and could fly a little bit farther (107%).

Have a nice Tuesday,

Michael

Re: Top Fw 190 aces
 

Re: Top Fw 190 aces
 

I do agree with you Nick....and we are not talking of the Pulk Zerstörer (A-7 and A-8) versions with special weapons to fight the 4-engined formations on daylight sorties....

It would be nice to have a comparison of % of victories achieved by Bf 109 x Fw 190 during the war....Do not know if THIS statistic exist....

How many kills (or aerial victories) were obtained by each model during the war (all versions)?

Re: Top Fw 190 aces
 

Good evening Mr. Baumgartner,

I made such a statistic via extrapolation this year. Most units that have used the Bf 109 and/or the Fw 190 have a known unit total and a known percentage of being equipped with either type, including foreign users. Currently, I'm not at home but I remember that the Bf 109 scored about 55.000 kills while the Fw 190 scored about 11.000.

Best greetings from Switzerland, sincerely,

Michael