Re: Bodenwöhr Waldwerk - Mtt Bf 109 K-4 assembly lines 1944 - 1945
 

Dear Karl,

I just found your source for this picture: Janowicz, Kr. (2006), Messerschmitt Bf 109 G/K Vol. III, Monography 29, Kagero. It originates, like so many others, from the James V. Crow collection.

Cheers
Marc

Re: Bodenwöhr Waldwerk - Mtt Bf 109 K-4 assembly lines 1944 - 1945
 

Hello there,

It is strange how since long known pictures of Bf 109 K-4 come under a new light when checked out according to your hypothesis, Roland, for differenciating between airframes produced the Cham-Bodenwöhr Waldwerk and the Flossenbürg-Vilseck KZ Werk.

I stumbled yesterday on this already often published picture of Bf 109 K-4 W.Nr.33X XX4, White 3 of I./JG 27 photographed by RCAF personel sometimes in the autumn 1945. The machine sports the distinctive snake pattern, and the last W.Nr. digit still shows aft of the Green RV band of JG 27. One more documented machine stemming from the Cham-Bodenwöhr assembly line...

Btw, since your post #111, Roland, I keep on stumbling on Bf 109 G-14's showing the same four digit W.Nr. sprayed on their aft fuselage, and full W.Nr. on top of the tail Hakenkreuz. Obviously also Cham-Bodenwöhr machines. Thanks again for this intimate satsifaction to decode more fully the existing pictures!

Source: Hildebrandt, C. (1989), Broken Eagles 3, Messerschmitt Bf 109G/K vol. II, p.19.

Cheers
Marc

Re: Bodenwöhr Waldwerk - Mtt Bf 109 K-4 assembly lines 1944 - 1945
 

Hi all

I got new infos.

Near Hasloch (Haseltal) there shall have been a tunnel where motors for Messerschmitts shall have been assembled. Hasloch is close to Wertheim. The Messerschmitt motors from Eichelsteige might have come from there !!!

Re: Bodenwöhr Waldwerk - Mtt Bf 109 K-4 assembly lines 1944 - 1945
 

Hi Fliegerhorst. Do you know what kind of tunnel that would have been? If the DB 605s were really assembled or built up there it would have been a large tunnel complex. Compare the known assembly lines like project "Goldfisch" at Neckarelz and "Doggerwerk" near Hersbruck.
I think it's more probable that it would have been another storage or kind of a repair shop.
By the way, were you able to find any further information where exactly the final assembly of the 109s took place respectivetly where motors and wings where attached to the fuselages. That's still an open question if I remember right.
regards
Matthias

Re: Bodenwöhr Waldwerk - Mtt Bf 109 K-4 assembly lines 1944 - 1945
 

some news about Wertheim and Bf-109

Messerschmitt Bf 109 G-6Y W-Nr. ?95??2
Mit FuG 16 ZY, Morane-Mast, Erla-Haube, normalem Seitenleitwerk aber hohem Sporn. RLM Abnahme, Wertheim Januar 1945. Die W-Nr. auf dem Seitenruder des Fotos ist schwer identifizierbar, sie könnte 95182 oder 195182 lauten.

Re: Bodenwöhr Waldwerk - Mtt Bf 109 K-4 assembly lines 1944 - 1945
 

http://flyingart.twoday.net/


A Pilot named Riediger might have done final Bf-109 tests for Reichluftfahrtministerium in Wertheim. This might mean assembly in Wertheim!

Re: Bodenwöhr Waldwerk - Mtt Bf 109 K-4 assembly lines 1944 - 1945
 

the puzzle fits:

Spessart wood (Eiche/Buche), used by Flumann in Kreuzwertheim, close to Stuhlfabrik Hofmann (manuacturer of chairs), cooperation. Electronics repair. 1944 pictures of French workers for ID cards. wings in Schlossbergtunnel. Eichelsteige motors stored. Heavy parts close to the tunnels entrance. Wertheim railway knot. Erla assembly at Eichelsteige.
Formerly: Harbour in the Tauber river. Airport on the hill. One large harbour
"Winterhafen" in the river main 3km downwards.

Pilot Riediger tested aircrafts for Reichsluftfahrtministerium

Re: Bodenwöhr Waldwerk - Mtt Bf 109 K-4 assembly lines 1944 - 1945
 

Hello,

A little bit out of subject but to confirm Fliegerhorst last comments, you can find a picture of Anton Riediger's Bf109G-6/y here and to confirm that pilot wasn't unknown another plane he flew here.

Cheers,

Franck.

Re: Bodenwöhr Waldwerk - Mtt Bf 109 K-4 assembly lines 1944 - 1945
 

I'm really confused because this "Erla assembly" wasn't and isn't mentioned in any Erla related German or Allied documents. So I'm interested on your unknown (to me) sources for this connection.

Best wishes
Rasmussen

Re: Bodenwöhr Waldwerk - Mtt Bf 109 K-4 assembly lines 1944 - 1945
 

[/quote]
One last point to take into account when thinking on this "near Wertheim" typical camouflage pattern. I perused all published Bf 109K-4 pictures available to me and found at least three operational machines with this same camouflage pattern:

- Bf 109 K-4, W.Nr. unknown, "Black 1" of 10. /JG 51, Ronne stadium, 4th May 1945 (Poruba and Mol 2000, 70 - 73).
- Bf 109 K-4, W. Nr unknown, JG 52 (?), Ceske Budejovice, May 1945, (Poruba and Mol 2000, 63).
- Bf 109 K-4, W. Nr unknown "White 8", JG 52 (?), May 1945 (Poruba and Mol 2000, 46 - 47). This one is illustrated by stills of a colour fim shot by the US Army; the film can be seen on Youtube.


[/quote]


I at last found again this youtube movie showing extensively "White 8"...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vA94O...eature=related


Cheers
Marc

Re: Bodenwöhr Waldwerk - Mtt Bf 109 K-4 assembly lines 1944 - 1945
 

Hi all,

I'm digging out this old threat again, because i finally managed to get a better scan of the tail section, showing the Bf109K-4 WNr. Have a own look, but I think it's way closer to a "5" than a "6".
Even so it's very interesting. Correct me, but this is the highest WNr known on a K4??? The Bodenwöhr-Cham production line was the last one in business building K4s. This fighter might straight come out of the final assembly in Cham (The workshop was placed on the aisle in the background, but is already removed in the picture) and would consequently be one of the last or perhaps the last Bf109 produced in WWII.

regards
Matthias

Re: Bodenwöhr Waldwerk - Mtt Bf 109 K-4 assembly lines 1944 - 1945
 

Forgive me for being stupid Mathias, but since the last 4 digits of the WNr typically appear on the fuselage side, and in this case is 6141, wouldn't make the full number 336141? Am I missing something?

Re: Bodenwöhr Waldwerk - Mtt Bf 109 K-4 assembly lines 1944 - 1945
 

Well of course it would be. If that's a "6141" but for me it's a "5141" on the fuselage as well as on the fin top. It's still hard to say :( Maybe someone has a picture showing that numbers 6 and 5 as Luftwaffe stencils on another fuselage, so that we could compare.

regards
Matthias

Re: Bodenwöhr Waldwerk - Mtt Bf 109 K-4 assembly lines 1944 - 1945
 

Hi there Matthias,

thanks to remember us this old topic. I was a "6141" fan at the beginning but I had to give up... You can check on your better scan that it's not that obvious on fuselage, still; except the full WNr. is stencilled on fin top and we can read a "5"; should I say definitely?

Regards, Franck.

Re: Bodenwöhr Waldwerk - Mtt Bf 109 K-4 assembly lines 1944 - 1945
 

Hi Matthias,

I can only concur with Franck... 335'141 is this time fully legible. Alas! But also most interesting: I do not know of any higher Bf 109 K-4 documented W.Nr.

Thanks for your clearing of this issue

Cheers
Marc

Re: Bodenwöhr Waldwerk - Mtt Bf 109 K-4 assembly lines 1944 - 1945
 

Hi Marc,

I don’t think 335141 is anywhere near the highest 335XXX WNr. extant. In my admittedly limited database file I list:

335170, 335177, 335185, 335197, 335199, 335201, 335204, 335206, 335207, 335208, 335209, 335210 and 335211.

Steve Sheflin

Re: Bodenwöhr Waldwerk - Mtt Bf 109 K-4 assembly lines 1944 - 1945
 

Hi there, Hi Steve,

Forgive me to try explaning the situation:
When the picture came on line, some, including me, started to think that we where seing/reading a "6141" (for 336141) which is merely impossible since the last K-4 335xxx production batch for Messerschmitt AG, Regensburg is known to be 335000 to 335300. Until further notice...
When Marc is saying "I do not know of any higher Bf 109 K-4 documented W.Nr." he is speaking about "pictured"... And he is speaking about himself, not for the whole community; well, I suppose, he will correct me if I'm wrong.
Now, Steve, if you have Higher Nbrs than 335141, it's perfectly possible inside The last 335xxx batch I'm talking about.
For example, 335197 & 335198 are cited in Marschall "Sea Eagle" and in Manfred Griehl "The Luftwaffe Profile Series No. 4, Focke Wulf Fw 190" respectively, following Peter van Gogh Data base.

Of course if you have PICTURES of the WNr. you're talking about Marc will be extremely happy to know them! :D.

Take notice, too, that inside the 335000 to 335300 production line, 335166 to 335215 are given as being produced by KZ Flossenbürg - Vilseck - Amberg/Schafhof production line in the same Data base.

Sorry Steve for that long post, I thought it was good to do it.
Last, I'm not an "expert" of course, others in TOCH are more capable than me to give you all the details.

Regards, Franck.

Re: Bodenwöhr Waldwerk - Mtt Bf 109 K-4 assembly lines 1944 - 1945
 

As I've posted on a similar thread over on the LEMB here, according to "Messerschmitt Bf109K Camouflage & Markings" by T.Poruba & K.Mol [JaPo, 2000] they listed some 18 WNr's listed higher than 335141, the highest being 335215... however, there may have been some higher ones discovered since their list was compiled... :)

Cheers
Peter D Evans
LEMB Administrator

Re: Bodenwöhr Waldwerk - Mtt Bf 109 K-4 assembly lines 1944 - 1945
 

Hi there Steve, Franck and Peter,

Steve and Peter,
you're of course correct: higher W.Nr. are documented on paper, no doubt (Poruba and Mol 2000).

Franck, you read me out perfectly ;-)) I was meaning "highest W.Nr. supported by photographic evidence." Late hours fpr posting do imply too short messages, like tonight!

Cheers
Marc

Re: Bodenwöhr Waldwerk - Mtt Bf 109 K-4 assembly lines 1944 - 1945
 

Two photos of 335197 ? (see number painted on rear fuselage).

These two photos come from an old french ebay auction.

Best regards from France.

RB

Re: Bodenwöhr Waldwerk - Mtt Bf 109 K-4 assembly lines 1944 - 1945
 

Hmm Rémi,

C'est Marc qui va être content.
Thanks very much for these pictures Rémi; You got the point today. Any idea of unit and place?

Regards, Franck.

Re: Bodenwöhr Waldwerk - Mtt Bf 109 K-4 assembly lines 1944 - 1945
 

Rémi,

Champagne! Beautiful discovery and at long last again some new Bf 109 K-4 imagery! Where did you find them? Any location on the pics?

Many thanks for sharing
Marc

Franck: Merci pour l'info;-))

Re: Bodenwöhr Waldwerk - Mtt Bf 109 K-4 assembly lines 1944 - 1945
 

Yes, many thanks Remi! never saw them.
the werknummer is applied with the help of stencils as seen on all Bodenwöhr K4's so far.
The scenery with the buildings timber frame construction reminds me somehow of franconia. Like those K4 found near Fürth airfield. That kind of architecture is very common in this area.

Thanks again!
Matthias

Re: Bodenwöhr Waldwerk - Mtt Bf 109 K-4 assembly lines 1944 - 1945
 

Hallo Matthias,

Thanks for your input; this brings us back towards the Fürth junkpile showing discarded K-4 fuselages...

By the way, could you keep building on your modelling spree of Bodenwöhr machines?

Cheers
Marc

Re: Bodenwöhr Waldwerk - Mtt Bf 109 K-4 assembly lines 1944 - 1945
 

Hi Marc,

I only finished the base. Since I'm not really an ardent modeller I've no further bricolage projected. :)
I'm hunting for pictures showing finshed fuselages waiting at Bodenwöhr station for their shipment to Cham airfield. Reportetly they where displayed at a regional history exhibit in Bodenwöhr some years ago. But I just started the hunt.

Matthias

Re: Bodenwöhr Waldwerk - Mtt Bf 109 K-4 assembly lines 1944 - 1945
 

Glad to see the pics Matthias! Lot of atmosphere with the dead leaves... Thanks for sharing them. Crossing my fingers for your next picture hunt!

Cheers
Marc

Re: Bodenwöhr Waldwerk - Mtt Bf 109 K-4 assembly lines 1944 - 1945
 

Hi there Gang!

Kees Mol very kindly sent me two more Bf 109 K-4 pictures most probably taken at Cham-Michelsdorf; they are from the same serie as the one found by Franck on Ebay, pointed out by Christian. Talk about a lucky strike!

As both are depicting the typical Cham-BodenWöhr camouflage pattern (e.g. snake pattern, I post them in this appropriate thread:

http://s881.photobucket.com/albums/a...28253676_o.jpg

This pic shows the same two machines as the one on e-bay. The full W.Nr. remains obscured by the hanging cammo filet also from this angle. The first three digits are plain to see 335...

http://s881.photobucket.com/albums/a...28254143_o.jpg

This one shows another K-4; as the rudder is gone, no W.Nr... unless those shadowy streaks on the rear fuselage are not cast by the same cammo filets, but the sprayed repetition of the last three digits in the usual Mtt Regensburg style. In this case, the last digit would be a 3...

Any more inputs?


Cheers
Marc

Re: Bodenwöhr Waldwerk - Mtt Bf 109 K-4 assembly lines 1944 - 1945
 

Hello Fliegerhorst,

ich habe viele Infos ueber Fliegerhorst in Wertheim und Volker-Werke in Reicholzheim, Moebelfabrik.

Bin in Reicholzheim-Wertheim aufgewachsen, seit 1959 in USA, jetzt in Florida.

e-mail.............sterling48310@aol.com

Tel 386 693-5150

Bis bald

Rudi Pitz