Luftwaffe Designation for Russian Aircraft as 'J-18'
 

Hi all

I am going through a Flugbuch relating to 5./SKG 210 and have found a couple of references in late 1941 to air battles with 'J 18'. I cannot find any reference to this aircraft type and wondered if anyone can identify what this might be.

Any help will be much appreciated.

Re: Luftwaffe Designation for Russian Aircraft as 'J-18'
 

Hello Tim,

there were different designations for the same type. In this case I-200, I-17 and I-18 for MiG-1.
Source: JFV part 6/I page 11.

Regards
Leo

Re: Luftwaffe Designation for Russian Aircraft as 'J-18'
 

Thanks Leo. Unfortunately I know next to nothing about Russian aircraft!

Re: Luftwaffe Designation for Russian Aircraft as 'J-18'
 

It might also have something to do with how things sound in German. I've seen Yak-1 (as it would be in English) reported as Jak-1 for example, and Jl-2 for Il-2.

Re: Luftwaffe Designation for Russian Aircraft as 'J-18'
 

This hasn't to do how sounds things in German --- J is the handwritten form of the letter I (and the printed J) and I is the printed form of the letter I.

Re: Luftwaffe Designation for Russian Aircraft as 'J-18'
 

Thanks again gentlemen.

Re: Luftwaffe Designation for Russian Aircraft as 'J-18'
 

And in the case of Jak/Yak … ?

Re: Luftwaffe Designation for Russian Aircraft as 'J-18'
 

Hi Nick

For what it is worth, my experience is also that a number of spellings in Flugbuche reflect German phonetics, particularly Russian place names, which can almost magically appear if we replace J with Y and Z with TS, etc.

Re: Luftwaffe Designation for Russian Aircraft as 'J-18'
 

Sometimes the search function helps, too.

http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?p=164570

Re: Luftwaffe Designation for Russian Aircraft as 'J-18'
 

Thanks Kazmarek but it was the J reference that threw me.

Re: Luftwaffe Designation for Russian Aircraft as 'J-18'
 

Nor could they reliably spell French or Italian place names or the names of their own people! Human fallibility at work.

Re: Luftwaffe Designation for Russian Aircraft as 'J-18'
 

How do you explain this then:
https://i.imgur.com/enh3pXS.jpg

Source: Bf 110 D-0/B, S9+CK, of 2./Erprobungsgruppe 210. Shot down on 15th August 1940 at Hawkhurst, Kent, England. Later shipped to the USA in April 1941.

Re: Luftwaffe Designation for Russian Aircraft as 'J-18'
 

There are a lot of possibilities --- the correct stencil wasn't by the hand or used by others, an unskilled worker with problems in spelling (such peoples in Germany too), not enough time/ stress (but him was known that everbody understood the word because the handwritten I and the printed J have/had the same form) or... or... or... but this hasn't to do how sounds things in Germany.

Re: Luftwaffe Designation for Russian Aircraft as 'J-18'
 

You don't answer my question.

This is what you wrote: "...J is the handwritten form of the letter I (and the printed J) and I is the printed form of the letter I..."

I've shown it was not only handwritten...

Re: Luftwaffe Designation for Russian Aircraft as 'J-18'
 

Excuse me but I answered your question ... maybe my English is limited or stupid.

Have a look on this: Attachment 15932
How you see the handwritten I looks like the printed J (depending from handwriting and/or print).

The usual form of an "printed I" was an printed I Attachment 15934.

Of course in your example was used an printed J instead of an printed I and you asked me for an explanation and this question I answered:

"There are a lot of possibilities --- the correct stencil wasn't by the hand or used by others, an unskilled worker with problems in spelling (such peoples in Germany too), not enough time/ stress (but him was known that everbody understood the word because the handwritten I and the printed J have/had the same form) or... or... or..." ... or how we say in Germany: "Ausnahmen bestätigen die Regel." ("Exceptions confirm the rule.")

But I believe this is an academic discussion and not part of an aircraft/airwar forum. So I believe it's more useless...

Re: Luftwaffe Designation for Russian Aircraft as 'J-18'
 

Rasmussen gives the correct explanation concerning hand-written scripts. But the confusion originates also in the difference Fraktur (=Schwabacher) Schrift and Antiqua (=Norm) Schrift:

http://www.suetterlinschrift.de/Lese...e/Fraktur1.htm

The change was made in 1941 (Bormann-Erlaß). So WW2 saw Gemans having grown up with Sütterlin and Fraktur, but had to use Normschrift and Antiqua. You have to take into consideration this fact when reading ANY German writing - both printed and hand-written - when reading German scripts of that time. The result were mixtures between the four of them. A living example for me is my 90-yo father...

Regards
RolandF

Re: Luftwaffe Designation for Russian Aircraft as 'J-18'
 

Flugzeugtafel 1944 Original wartime production.

.

Re: Luftwaffe Designation for Russian Aircraft as 'J-18'
 

Thanks again everyone.

Re: Luftwaffe Designation for Russian Aircraft as 'J-18'
 

Sorry I didn't pick up that you were interested in 10./ not 12./- a doh! moment for me!
Regarding your request for information for Gaul and Mueller, have you seen the info in the officer career summaries at ww2.dk?
Peter

Re: Luftwaffe Designation for Russian Aircraft as 'J-18'
 

Hi Peter

I think I provided most of the information to ww2.dk on Gaul and Mueller but thanks for the pointer anyway.

Re: Luftwaffe Designation for Russian Aircraft as 'J-18'
 

Hi everyone,

The I-17 was a Polikarpov design designation and was used for three different prototypes between 1933 and 1936. The last version of this was built with an inline water cooled engine similar to the later MiGs. It was on display at the Paris Air Show in 1936 and never put into production. The Luftwaffe intell people probably thought the MiG was an out growth of the I-17 hence their designation and because of its similar appearance to the MiG. The was no I-18 (which was another Polikarpov project and was a study only). The I-18 designation is something the Germans cooked up on their own. The MiG was designed by the team A. I. Mikoyan and M. I. Gurevich and was an entirely new design not related to Polikarpov's work. It was originally designated I-61 but a few months later changed to I-200. It was produced at Fili (Moscow) one of the factories that Ashenbrenner was shown in April 1941. All of this info comes from Lennart Anderssen's "Soviet Aircraft and Aviation 1917-1941".

Hope that helps a little
oquaig

Re: Luftwaffe Designation for Russian Aircraft as 'J-18'
 

Thanks again Oquaig