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KG51 Losses 22.6.41
On the 22.6.41 KG51 launched their attack on the Soviets attacking various airfields, and reputedely destroying over 100 aircraft on the ground.
The Geschwader lost over 15 aircraft, with many others unserviceable from damage or had crashed and become a total loss. Sixty aircrew were reported killed or missing! Amongst these, im looking for details of the following from NVM reports, or other records giving the loss details. Long serving Oblt Von Wenchowski 5/KG51 St.Kapitan, Lt Emanuel Alder III/KG51 If you have any information regarding the above id be pleased to hear from you. Best regs, Steve. |
Re: KG51 Losses 22.6.41
Hi, Steve
According to the GenQu listings, there seems to be a problem locating loss details for Wenchowski, the loss in which Alder was involved is readily found: http://www.ahs.no/ref_db/lw_loss_pub...?lossid=120259 The unit reported a total of aircraft losses, split on the Gruppen as follows: Stab - None I. Gruppe - 1 aircraft missing II. Gruppe - 5 aircraft missing, 1 damaged by Flak, 1 damaged by fighters III. Gruppe - 9 aircraft missing There are loads of corrections for these loss dates, mostly added from so-called Vordruck II (which is the 'slang' for the Namentliche Verlustemeldung) and LP-Meldungen (from the Personalamt). However - in these the name Wenchowski does not appear. In fact the name does not appear in any of the 13000+ corrections that we have registered, and the only possibility then is that this correction was made as late as 1944-1945, in the period where the GenQu6Abt loss records are missing, or that he in fact was not posted missing, wounded or killed on this date, or his name has been misspelled beyond any recognition! Regards, Andreas B |
Re: KG51 Losses 22.6.41
Steve; Agreeing with Andreas Brekken, I too did not find that name. I wonder if this is the person?
6250 Ju 88 A-5 [xx+xx] Luftwaffe - Ju 88 A-5 9K+IN II/KG 51 (Luftflotte 4 East) OPS (F) mis (100%) unk location 11.07.1941 (F Hptm. Günter von Wenczewsky missing, B Fw. Karl Aull mis/rep allright in p/16.07.42, BF Fw. Heinz Mühlenberg mis/rep killed <abowe>, BS Obgefr. Karl Hühner missing) cheers ed |
Re: KG51 Losses 22.6.41
Hi, Ed
Have almost corresponding information, however I have the aircraft WNr as 6230 and the code as 9K+IN http://www.ahs.no/ref_db/lw_loss_pub...?lossid=120271 If v.Wenczewsky/v.Wenchowski was involved in a damage situation on 22.06.1941 I feel he must have been unhurt on this date, and then went missing on the 11.07.1941 Regards, Andreas B |
Re: KG51 Losses 22.6.41
Hi Andreas & others,
Just learned one more lesson: Always double check before posting on this forum (i.e. many specalists armed with friendly Flak onboard here). I personally have not finished combing all the amendments re Ju 88 units, and typos are still occationally found in what I have already done. Thus checked again both (by scanning microfilm and then sharpening to be shure) in RL 2 III / 754 and RL 2 III / 1177 (I do not have Namentliche Verlustemeldungen < Vordruck II >). Yes W.Nr. is 6230 (more clear in 1177 <but backwards arranged and containing amendments> - I used RL 2 III/754 for ´first sweep´). I thus repost my info (Stkz. ´interpolated´): 6230 Ju 88 A-5 [KB+SE] Luftwaffe - Ju 88 A-5 9K+IN II/KG 51 (Luftflotte 4 East) OPS (F) mis (100%) unk location 11.07.1941 (F Hptm. Günter von Wenczewskyj missing, B Fw. Karl Aull mis/rep allright in p/16.07.42, BF Fw. Heinz Mühlenberg mis/rep killed <abowe>, BS Obgefr. Karl Hühner missing) [rep in LWFLV 66v15.07.41, amd in p/16.07.42; Appears as ´Hptm. v. Wenczewskyi, Günter´ in RL 2 III/754 (15.07.41, P.3) but apparently amd as Hptm. v. Wenczewskyj, Günter´ in RL 2 III/1177 (15.07.41 P.3). ] Just trying to help... cheers ed |
Re: KG51 Losses 22.6.41
Evening chaps,
Thanks ever so much for your excellent and detailed information. Sorry its taken till now to respond, ive had a crisis at home with a family member being rushed into hospital. The Wenchowski / Wenczewskyi theories seem quite plausible, it would be fantastic to be able to nail this one on the head, once and for all! Andreas, would it be possible to attach the links to these losses on the 22.6.41 from your superb Aviation History Soc. database. I fear for some of the losses i have, conflicting information! Thank you ever so much for your trouble. Steve. |
Re: KG51 Losses 22.6.41
Hi,
I have in my files: Lt.Emanuel Alder and his crew, 9./K.G.51, MIA 22.6.1941 with Ju88 WNr.6318, Vbk. unknown. The airplane of Lt.Alder probably had hits in the right engine and flew very slowly. The airplane was no longer seen near Stanislau by the crew Lt.Pahl.Presumably the plane crashed into a forest south of Stanislau ( smoke-cloude?) sources: Namentliche Verlustmeldung Nr30a der III./K.G.51 Rene |
Re: KG51 Losses 22.6.41
Hello Rene,
Yes indeed me too! i also have Alder flying W.Nr 6318 but cannot be certain as to whether this a/c is coded 9K+DR, or 9K+DT. This is the reason why i have asked Andreas to supply the links to his loss database, if he his willing to do so? Rene, very interesting to read about the last sighting reported by Lt Pahl, where Alder's a/c was last seen nr Stanislau! Thank you for your contribution, very useful. Best regs, Steve. |
Re: KG51 Losses 22.6.41
Well, a very sad event, but part of this story.
After Stanislau was captured, the German and Hungarian troops found few brutally tortured and mutilated bodies of Luftwaffe crewmembers in an NKVD prison. I'm 100% sure, that these poor souls were lost mostly on the first day of the attack and were from the KG 51... |
Re: KG51 Losses 22.6.41
Hi Steve;
I have A-5 6318 9K+DT III/KG 51 missing (Tarnepol) 22.06.1941, no 9K+DR in June 1941. (Note: Loss is reported as III Gruppe - not 8. Staffel - suggesting 9K+DT might be correct? I stick to 9K+DT unless proof comes this is wrong.) cheers ed |
Re: KG51 Losses 22.6.41
Hello Csaba,
In Dierich's book " Kampfgeschwader Eidelweiss " it also mentions that the German Air Ministry had broadcasted reports, of crewmen who had gone missing in these earler battles having been found dead. Some of these men had met a merciful end, while others according to local people, had been taken prisoner by the Russians and tortured to death. It is plain to see why many Luftwaffe crewmen commited suicide on the spot, when crashing far behind enemy lines, rather than be taken prisoner and have to face a brutal and agonising death! Thank you Csaba for your information regarding the attrocities found at Stanislau, i wasn't aware of this. Best regs, Steve. |
Re: KG51 Losses 22.6.41
Hi Steve!
I have the diary, many fotos and some awards from Lt. Werner Poppenburg, 7./K.G.51. He flew the first and the second of his 216 missions as a Kampfflieger on 22.6.1944. The first target was airfield Stryj and the second Tarnopol. The diary describes these two missions very precisely. Not only in Stanislau, me unknown until today, also in Tarnopol they found several airmen tortured and murdered by NKWD. One, Ofw.Harenburg, was identified by a comrade. The Bordfunker of the Poppenburg-crew survived the war and told me, that after these founds in Tarnopol many crews not wanted to come lively into Russian captivity. Also I have copies of all “Namentliche Verlustmeldungen der III./K.G.51“ on the 22.6.1941. Rene |
Re: KG51 Losses 22.6.41
Ju 88A-5, 6230, Wenezowky, Hptm. Günter von, , 5., KG 51, , 9K+IN, , , 11-Jul-41, MIA, cause unknown. B & Bs MIA, Bf KIA., , Ostfront, Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #3)-Vol.5, , Ort unbekannt, 100%, F, B Fw. Karl Aull, Bf Fw. Heinz Mühlenberg & Bs Ogefr. Karl Kühner,
22-Jun-41, Ju 88A-5, 8259, Ungericht, Fw. Alfred, , KG 51, 9., gelbe L, 9K+LT, , , 22-Jun-41, , MIA with crew, cause unknown., , , Ostfront, Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #3)-Vol.5, , (Stryj), 100%, F 22-Jun-41, Ju 88A-5, 6296, Steinmetz, Oblt. Herbert, , KG 51, 8., , 9K+ES, , , 22-Jun-41, , KIA with crew, cause unknown., , , Ostfront, Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #3)-Vol.5, , , 100%, F 22-Jun-41, Ju 88A-5, 5126, Evers, Uffz. Otto, , KG 51, 9., gelbe C, 9K+CT, , , 22-Jun-41, , Reported lost, cause unknown. Crew returned WIA., DK. Built at Heinkel Flzg.Werke Oranienburg in Jul-40., , Ostfront, Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #3)-Vol.5, Medcalf, Ort unbekannt, 100%, F 22-Jun-41, Ju 88A-5, 6234, Harmann, Ltn. Christoph, , KG 51, 8., , 9K+AS, , , 22-Jun-41, , KIA with crew, cause unknown., , , Ostfront, Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #3)-Vol.5, , , 100%, F 22-Jun-41, Ju 88A-5, 5245, Böhm, Oblt. Gerhard, , KG 51, 9., gelbe G, 9K+GT, , , 22-Jun-41, , KIA with crew, cause unknown., , , Ostfront, Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #3)-Vol.5, , Tarnopol, 100%, F 22-Jun-41, Ju 88A-5, 6318, Alder, Ltn. Emanuel, , KG 51, 9., gelbe D, 9K+DT, , , 22-Jun-41, , MIA with crew, cause unknown., , , Ostfront, Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #3)-Vol.5, , Tarnopol, 100%, F 22-Jun-41, Ju 88A-5, 2364, Spannheimer, Ofw. Rudolf, , KG 51, 5., , 9K+HN, , , 22-Jun-41, , KIA, cause unknown. 2 others KIA, 1 MIA., , , Ostfront, Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #3)-Vol.5, , , 100%, F 22-Jun-41, Ju 88A-5, 5178, Sommer, Fw. Heinz, , KG 51, 9., gelbe A, 9K+AT, KC+GO, , 22-Jun-41, , MIA with crew, cause unknown., Built at Heinkel Flzg.Werke Oranienburg in Sep-40., , Ostfront, Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #3)-Vol.5, Medcalf, (Büchow), 100%, F 22-Jun-41, Ju 88A-5, 6143, Palmer, Fw. Wilhelm, , KG 51, II., , , CF+VM, , 22-Jun-41, , WIA due to enemy fire., Built ATG Flzg.Werke at Leipzig in Aug-40., , Ostfront, Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #3)-Vol.5, Medcalf, Krosno, b, F 22-Jun-41, Ju 88A-5, 6229, Deisinger, Ofw. Raimund, , KG 51, 7., weiße F, 9K+FR, , , 22-Jun-41, , KIA, cause unknown. Rest of crew MIA., , , Ostfront, Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #3)-Vol.5, , Tarnopol, 100%, F 22-Jun-41, Ju 88A-5, 5136, Amelung, Uffz. Heinrich, , KG 51, 2., , 9K+FK, , , 22-Jun-41, , MIA with crew, cause unknown., DK? Built at Heinkel Flzg.Werke Oranienburg in Aug-40., , Ostfront, Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #3)-Vol.5, Medcalf, Ort unbekannt, 100%, F 22-Jun-41, Ju 88A-5, 3171, STEMMLER, Oblt. Wilhelm, , KG 51, 4., weiße A, 9K+AM, ND+DS, , 22-Jun-41, , Reported lost, cause unknown. F and 1 other returned, 2 KIA., RK. Built Henschel Flzg.Werke Schönefeld in Aug-40., , Ostfront, Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #3)-Vol.5, , Ort unbekannt, 100%, F 22-Jun-41, Ju 88A-5, 7076, Klopsch, Fw. Günter, , KG 51, 8., , 9K+DS, VK+VD, , 22-Jun-41, , MIA, cause unknown. 2 others MIA, 1 KIA., Built Dornier Flzg.Werke at Freidrichshafen in Jun-40., , Ostfront, Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #3)-Vol.5, Medcalf, Ort unbekannt, 100%, F 22-Jun-41, Ju 88A-5, 2373, Müller, Ltn. Gerhard, , KG 51, 5., , 9K+GN, , , 22-Jun-41, , MIA with crew, cause unknown., , , Ostfront, Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #3)-Vol.5, , , 100%, F 22-Jun-41, Ju 88A-5, 4328, Schmidt, Ltn. Heinz, , KG 51, 5., , 9K+CN, , , 22-Jun-41, , MIA with crew, cause unknown., , , Ostfront, Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #3)-Vol.5, , , 100%, F 22-Jun-41, Ju 88A-5, 8179, Stadelmeyer, Hptm. Fritz, , KG 51, Stab II., grüne I, 9K+IC, PC+QM, , 22-Jun-41, , KIA, cause unknown. 2 others KIA, 1 WIA., Built Siebel Flzg.Werke at Halle-Leipzig in Dec-40., , Ostfront, Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #3)-Vol.5, Medcalf, Ort unbekannt, 100%, F 22-Jun-41, Ju 88A-5, 8196, Hogger, Ltn. Josef, , KG 51, II., , , , , 22-Jun-41, , WIA due to Flak. 1 other WIA., , , Ostfront, Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #3)-Vol.5, , Pantalowice, b, F |
Re: KG51 Losses 22.6.41
Good evening Jim,
Thanks ever so much for posting these losses for the 22.6.41. This appears to show with doubt that Alder was indeed with the 9/KG51, and flying 9K+DT as opposed to 9K+FR W.Nr 6229 as given in Andreas's report earlier. Hopefully another conumdrum closed! Given the enormous losses suffered on this day, and further a/c that returned damaged, and crashlanded, its a wonder the Geschwader was able to keep its operational status! One wonders how soon the losses were made up. Thanks ever so much for providing the losses Jim, im very grateful. Best regs, Steve. |
Re: KG51 Losses 22.6.41
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the Hungarians found few tortured and killed German flyers at Kameniez-Podolsk as well in a cellar. At Striy, I don't remember any Luftwaffe victim (altough there is also possible few), but they do found hundreds of butchered civilians: Polish and Ukrainian ones, who were 'unreliable' so they were imprisoned, but the NKVD had no capacity to evacuate the prison, so shot them (but some civilians were burned to death as well) Many Hungarian soldiers enraged in this inhuman brutality and I guess, if they captured any NKVD members in this area, they were not really warmly welcomed... By the way, the Hungarian troops could release four German flyers as well from a prison in this area. |
Re: KG51 Losses 22.6.41
22-Jun-41, Ju 88A-5, 5245, Böhm, Oblt. Gerhard, , KG 51, 9., gelbe G, 9K+GT, , , 22-Jun-41, , KIA with crew, cause unknown., , , Ostfront, Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #3)-Vol.5, , Tarnopol, 100%, F--- 1km NW Worona , 18km SO Stanislau, all four were buried at the Worona cemetery
22-Jun-41, Ju 88A-5, 8259, Ungericht, Fw. Alfred, , KG 51, 9., gelbe L, 9K+LT, , , 22-Jun-41, , MIA with crew, cause unknown., , , Ostfront, Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #3)-Vol.5, , (Stryj), 100%, F-- Ju88 crashed on the road Stryj-Bolechow,1,5km N. Lisewice.Fw.Alfred Ungericht and his Bombenschütze Uffz.Kurt Küster were injured by crashlanding. Both were captured by Russians and brought into the hospital of Stryj . After states from local inhabitants both was murdered by the NKWD. The other two escaped and came back to his unit on 12.7.1941. 22-Jun-41, Ju 88A-5, 5178, Sommer, Fw. Heinz, , KG 51, 9., gelbe A, 9K+AT, KC+GO, , 22-Jun-41, , MIA with crew, cause unknown., Built at Heinkel Flzg.Werke Oranienburg in Sep-40., , Ostfront, Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #3)-Vol.5, Medcalf, (Büchow), 100%, F-- Crew back to his unit on 10.7.1941 22-Jun-41, Ju 88A-5, 6234, Harmann, Ltn. Christoph, , KG 51, 8., , 9K+AS, , , 22-Jun-41, , KIA with crew, cause unknown., , , Ostfront, Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #3)-Vol.5, , , 100%, F-- Lt.Cristoph Hermann. He and his crew were found buried at the crashplace south of Drohobycz near Truskowiec, left the railroad Truskowiec-Drohobycz by the 2./Pol.Batl.311 22-Jun-41, Ju 88A-5, 6296, Steinmetz, Oblt. Herbert, , KG 51, 8., , 9K+ES, , , 22-Jun-41, , KIA with crew, cause unknown., , , Ostfront, Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #3)-Vol.5, , , 100%, F-- report from Fw.Klopsch,8./K.G.51- plane from Steinmetz was hit bei the enemy, right engine in flames.The plane became ever slower, flew under my Ju88 and rammed me. Steinmetz flew further approximately 10 minutes. Engine gave more and more clouds of smoke .Than the airplan crashed and exploded . North of Lemberg Rene |
Re: KG51 Losses 22.6.41
Hi Andreas, no problem at all.
Im sure many of us have spent time imputting data onto our PC's until the early hours, and have made a typo through sheer exhaustion! Please do so at your leisure. Steve. |
Re: KG51 Losses 22.6.41
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Re: KG51 Losses 22.6.41
22-Jun-41, Ju 88A-5, 8259, Ungericht, Fw. Alfred, , KG 51, 9., gelbe L, 9K+LT, , , 22-Jun-41, , MIA with crew, cause unknown., , , Ostfront, Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #3)-Vol.5, , (Stryj), 100%, F-- Other inhabitant of Stryj told that both airmen were picked up from the hospital in an ambulance-car of the NKWD and were carried off after the east. In the building of the NKWD, Ukrainian militia found after departure of the Russians two German Luftwaffe-uniforms . A report from the 4.7.1941 of the 101.le.Inf.Div. declares the finding of the grave and the Erkennungsmarke of a German Luftwaffe- Uffz . He was found of the cemetery in Kozara, 4km.wsw Bukaczowac. The Erkennungsmarke 65113/130 identified the dead person as Uffz.Kurt Küster. Also inhabitants of Kozara told that the Russians 2 or 3 officers, from it an Luftwaffe-captain carried along. Rene |
Re: KG51 Losses 22.6.41
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Michal |
Re: KG51 Losses 22.6.41
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Otherwise anybody could say it is a rumour or propaganda. |
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