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  #1  
Old 8th October 2007, 15:59
steve sheridan steve sheridan is offline
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KG51 Losses 22.6.41

On the 22.6.41 KG51 launched their attack on the Soviets attacking various airfields, and reputedely destroying over 100 aircraft on the ground.
The Geschwader lost over 15 aircraft, with many others unserviceable from damage or had crashed and become a total loss. Sixty aircrew were reported killed or missing!

Amongst these, im looking for details of the following from NVM reports, or
other records giving the loss details.

Long serving Oblt Von Wenchowski 5/KG51 St.Kapitan,
Lt Emanuel Alder III/KG51

If you have any information regarding the above id be pleased to hear from you.

Best regs,
Steve.
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Old 9th October 2007, 01:04
Andreas Brekken's Avatar
Andreas Brekken Andreas Brekken is online now
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Re: KG51 Losses 22.6.41

Hi, Steve

According to the GenQu listings, there seems to be a problem locating loss details for Wenchowski, the loss in which Alder was involved is readily found:

http://www.ahs.no/ref_db/lw_loss_pub...?lossid=120259

The unit reported a total of aircraft losses, split on the Gruppen as follows:

Stab - None
I. Gruppe - 1 aircraft missing
II. Gruppe - 5 aircraft missing, 1 damaged by Flak, 1 damaged by fighters
III. Gruppe - 9 aircraft missing


There are loads of corrections for these loss dates, mostly added from so-called Vordruck II (which is the 'slang' for the Namentliche Verlustemeldung) and LP-Meldungen (from the Personalamt).

However - in these the name Wenchowski does not appear. In fact the name does not appear in any of the 13000+ corrections that we have registered, and the only possibility then is that this correction was made as late as 1944-1945, in the period where the GenQu6Abt loss records are missing, or that he in fact was not posted missing, wounded or killed on this date, or his name has been misspelled beyond any recognition!

Regards,
Andreas B
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Old 9th October 2007, 02:28
edNorth edNorth is offline
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Re: KG51 Losses 22.6.41

Steve; Agreeing with Andreas Brekken, I too did not find that name. I wonder if this is the person?

6250 Ju 88 A-5 [xx+xx] Luftwaffe
- Ju 88 A-5 9K+IN II/KG 51 (Luftflotte 4
East) OPS (F) mis (100%) unk location 11.07.1941 (F Hptm. Günter von Wenczewsky missing, B Fw. Karl Aull mis/rep allright in p/16.07.42, BF Fw. Heinz Mühlenberg mis/rep killed <abowe>, BS Obgefr. Karl Hühner missing)

cheers
ed

Last edited by edNorth; 9th October 2007 at 02:30. Reason: text format/typos
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Old 9th October 2007, 03:03
Andreas Brekken's Avatar
Andreas Brekken Andreas Brekken is online now
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Re: KG51 Losses 22.6.41

Hi, Ed

Have almost corresponding information, however I have the aircraft WNr as 6230 and the code as 9K+IN

http://www.ahs.no/ref_db/lw_loss_pub...?lossid=120271

If v.Wenczewsky/v.Wenchowski was involved in a damage situation on 22.06.1941 I feel he must have been unhurt on this date, and then went missing on the 11.07.1941

Regards,
Andreas B
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Old 9th October 2007, 13:30
edNorth edNorth is offline
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Re: KG51 Losses 22.6.41

Hi Andreas & others,

Just learned one more lesson: Always double check before posting on this forum (i.e. many specalists armed with friendly Flak onboard here). I personally have not finished combing all the amendments re Ju 88 units, and typos are still occationally found in what I have already done. Thus checked again both (by scanning microfilm and then sharpening to be shure) in RL 2 III / 754 and RL 2 III / 1177 (I do not have Namentliche Verlustemeldungen < Vordruck II >). Yes W.Nr. is 6230 (more clear in 1177 <but backwards arranged and containing amendments> - I used RL 2 III/754 for ´first sweep´).

I thus repost my info (Stkz. ´interpolated´):

6230 Ju 88 A-5 [KB+SE] Luftwaffe
- Ju 88 A-5 9K+IN II/KG 51 (Luftflotte 4 East)
OPS (F) mis (100%) unk location 11.07.1941 (F Hptm. Günter von Wenczewskyj
missing, B Fw. Karl Aull mis/rep allright in p/16.07.42, BF Fw. Heinz Mühlenberg
mis/rep killed <abowe>, BS Obgefr. Karl Hühner missing)

[rep in LWFLV 66v15.07.41, amd in p/16.07.42; Appears as ´Hptm. v. Wenczewskyi, Günter´ in RL 2 III/754 (15.07.41, P.3) but apparently amd as Hptm. v. Wenczewskyj, Günter´ in RL 2 III/1177 (15.07.41 P.3). ]


Just trying to help...

cheers
ed

Last edited by edNorth; 9th October 2007 at 13:35. Reason: ´Friendly Flak´ / typos
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Old 11th October 2007, 01:02
steve sheridan steve sheridan is offline
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Re: KG51 Losses 22.6.41

Evening chaps,
Thanks ever so much for your excellent and detailed information.
Sorry its taken till now to respond, ive had a crisis at home with a family member being rushed into hospital.

The Wenchowski / Wenczewskyi theories seem quite plausible, it would be fantastic to be able to nail this one on the head, once and for all!

Andreas, would it be possible to attach the links to these losses on the 22.6.41 from your superb Aviation History Soc. database. I fear for some of the losses i have, conflicting information!

Thank you ever so much for your trouble.

Steve.
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Old 11th October 2007, 14:10
Reiner Reiner is offline
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Re: KG51 Losses 22.6.41

Hi,
I have in my files:
Lt.Emanuel Alder and his crew, 9./K.G.51, MIA 22.6.1941 with Ju88 WNr.6318, Vbk. unknown.
The airplane of Lt.Alder probably had hits in the right engine and flew very slowly. The airplane was no longer seen near Stanislau by the crew Lt.Pahl.Presumably the plane crashed into a forest south of Stanislau ( smoke-cloude?)

sources: Namentliche Verlustmeldung Nr30a der III./K.G.51

Rene
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Old 11th October 2007, 15:08
steve sheridan steve sheridan is offline
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Re: KG51 Losses 22.6.41

Hello Rene,
Yes indeed me too! i also have Alder flying W.Nr 6318 but cannot be certain as to whether this a/c is coded 9K+DR, or 9K+DT.
This is the reason why i have asked Andreas to supply the links to his loss
database, if he his willing to do so?

Rene, very interesting to read about the last sighting reported by Lt Pahl,
where Alder's a/c was last seen nr Stanislau!

Thank you for your contribution, very useful.

Best regs,
Steve.
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Old 11th October 2007, 15:12
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Re: KG51 Losses 22.6.41

Well, a very sad event, but part of this story.
After Stanislau was captured, the German and Hungarian troops found few brutally tortured and mutilated bodies of Luftwaffe crewmembers in an NKVD prison. I'm 100% sure, that these poor souls were lost mostly on the first day of the attack and were from the KG 51...
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Old 11th October 2007, 16:08
edNorth edNorth is offline
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Re: KG51 Losses 22.6.41

Hi Steve;

I have A-5 6318 9K+DT III/KG 51 missing (Tarnepol) 22.06.1941, no 9K+DR in June 1941. (Note: Loss is reported as III Gruppe - not 8. Staffel - suggesting 9K+DT might be correct? I stick to 9K+DT unless proof comes this is wrong.)

cheers
ed
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