Originally Posted by Franek Grabowski (Post 75817)

Well, it seems there is very little in regard of personal remarks on Luftwaffe characters. I have heard a story or two, but it is non existent, comparing to what we know about some Allied pilots.

Originally Posted by yogybär (Post 75922)

I read the famous (german) III./JG54 book. I got the impression that Dortenmann was a very good and indeed notbrainless believer in "Endsieg" or such. He was critical against senseless orders and fought against the enemy as a good soldier should.

Yes, one can (and maybe should) interprete this as negative under the given circumstances. Anyway, my "feeling" after the book is that he was a very good pilot and commander. Indeed, I like the image of him I got from that book.

One example: One day, his Gruppe had very high losses due to bad orders. His Staffel got the same idiotic orders. He did not follow them, his Staffel achieved some success and had no (or verys low) losses.

Originally Posted by F19Gladiator (Post 75941)

Hi Nick,
I've just re-read the book by fellow pilot Willi Heilmann, "Alert in The West" in which Dortenmann figures on many pages and in several air battles described.
I've found no remarks in the direction you indicate.

Like the comments based on Axel Urbankes's book ("Green Hearts. First in Combat With the Dora 9" in Engl. transl.) by 'Yogybär' he comes through as a very good and experienced fighter pilot and the relation to other pilots seems to be good.
He gives the impression of being a professional fighter pilot and unit leader and not a fanatic and rather despising higher Luftwaffe authority and hard core Nazis – “Der Dicke” and the OKL included.

Were did you get the impression he got the “Neck itch” chasing for a Knight's Cross? I quickly skimmed through “The JG 26 War Diary Vol 2”, Caldwell, Grub Street, 1988, and on p. 466 there is a remark:
“Oblt. Dortenmann was awarded his Knight’s Cross, to the joy and the probable relief of his 3rd Staffel pilots”

Is there any other reference supporting the view that he was chasing a Knight’s Cross?

The units he led suffered heavily, being vastly outnumbered in many air battles, but so were also other Staffeln in 1944/45 over the Western Front.
He gives me the impression of trying to achieve results but find no indication he is sacrificing his wingmen or Staffel members for a victory. From time to time rather being upset over the high losses inflicted on his unit because of the in his mind stupid decisions by the Lw headquarter staff handed down to unit level.

In the carnage in the West where a new pilot was lucky if he survived 10 missions I can imagine that some, or several, young pilots found it nerve-racking to be led into murderous air fights by their Staffel (later Gruppe) leader and taking terrible beatings day after day, concluding that the leader’s only motivation can have been a Knight’s Cross as it must have been obvious to all that at this point the war could never have been won by the Germans – So why keep on attacking until a sure death or injury came to you? Because the boss wanted a “Gong”!
I don’t know if that was the case – Only an alternative explanation and pure speculation from my end.

Cheers
Göran

Originally Posted by advsmt (Post 75963)

Sorry, could not resist posting a signed picture of Dortenmann. This one came from Obermaier - the one in his jagflieger book.

Brian

Originally Posted by leonventer (Post 75872)

Hi Nick,
Agreed, but here are a couple of resources that are worth considering:

• "Ikaros: Persönlichkeit und Wesen des deutschen Jagdfliegers im Zweiten Weltkrieg" by Paul Robert Skawran, 1969

• "Luftwaffe Efficiency & Promotion Reports, vols. 1 & 2" by French L. MacLean, 2007

Leon Venter

Originally Posted by Ruy Horta (Post 78335)

How are these two titles in general?

Ikaros I've seen quoted from before, but the MacLean book is new to me.

Originally Posted by matthias74 (Post 78684)

Trying do correlate pilots' physique to their personalities, and to some extent to their "success potential", seems, well, "Third Reichish".

Originally Posted by leonventer (Post 78723)

he says nothing about the extent of the pilots' adherence to Nazi ideology.

Originally Posted by kennethklee (Post 78944)

I'm a little late to the discussion but wanted to comment on this interesting topic. Somewhat fortuitously I just read Axel Urbanke's Green Hearts First in Combat with the Dora 9. As those who have read this fine book know, Urbanke interviewed many surviving members of III/JG 54 and JG 26 and cited extensively from Dortenmann's diary. Many of the surviving pilots comment favorably on Dortenmann and his abilities as a fighter pilot and a formation leader, and that he looked out for the pilots under his command. In fact, I did not recall reading any quotes that were less than favorable for Dortenmann. Although Dortenmann was an aggressive fighter pilot and did not hesitate to engage the enemy, the welfare of his men seemed to take priority. One pilot is quoted stating that Dortenmann never lost a wingman while scoring a victory. I did not recall any quotes from his pilots suggesting that Dortenmann had the neck itch for the Knight's Cross. A lively party is briefly described as occurring spontaneously when Dortenmann encountered some of his former pilots from IV/JG 26, suggesting Dortenmann was held in high regard by his pilots, which would be unlikely if Dortenmann put any ambitions for decorations and advancement ahead of his men. Since Dortenmann passed in 1973, no motive for hiding unfavorable facts or opinions should be present for none of Dortenmann's surviving contemporaries.

Dortenmann's diary quotes often describe his affinity for his pilots from IV/JG 26, and his regrets at leaving them when he transferred to I/JG 26. A fellow officer, Lt. Hans Prager, describes in detail the aftermath when his Fw 190D-9 was severely damaged by collision with a P-47 and that Dortenmann took charge of guiding Prager home to a safe landing; he provided radio advice and reassurance and checked out the landing field ahead of him. When Dortenmann finally received his Knight's Cross in late April 1945, the pilots of his former Staffel 14/JG 26 are described as happy for him because he never scored his victories at the expense of his men, but because he was a very skilled pilot and leader.

Although this is only one book, it appears to be well-researched and documented, especially with regards to interviews with surviving pilots and use of logbooks (i.e., Dortenmann) and therefore very credible to me. In summary, the Green Hearts book left me with the impression that Hans Dortenmann was a very skilled fighter pilot and leader who took his leadership duties seriously and put his men first.

Originally Posted by NickM (Post 78970)

No doubt then, Dortenmann was Eager for combat AND a skilled AND careful pilot...thanks for the Feedback;

nickm