Subordinates' opinions of Hans Dortenmann;

[NickM]

Guys:

I recall from reading The JG26 War Diary that towards the end of the War, Hans Dortenmann was one officer within III/JG54 & JG26 who was still pursuing decorations & 'Glory and Honor', even given the situation with defeat imminent...I was curious if anybody under Dortenmann's command ever commented on flying with Dortenmann---obviously he was a VERY skilled pilot but at the same time his actions would put his subordinates in a LOT of unnecessary danger;

Hope this question isnt' too silly sounding;

TiA

nickm

[Franek Grabowski]

Well, it seems there is very little in regard of personal remarks on Luftwaffe characters. I have heard a story or two, but it is non existent, comparing to what we know about some Allied pilots.

[NickM]

Originally Posted by Franek Grabowski

Well, it seems there is very little in regard of personal remarks on Luftwaffe characters. I have heard a story or two, but it is non existent, comparing to what we know about some Allied pilots.

Franek, that sounds quite interesting...could you possibly share the anecdote?

nickm

[leonventer]

Hi Nick,

Well, it seems there is very little in regard of personal remarks on Luftwaffe characters. I have heard a story or two, but it is non existent, comparing to what we know about some Allied pilots.

Agreed, but here are a couple of resources that are worth considering:

• "Ikaros: Persönlichkeit und Wesen des deutschen Jagdfliegers im Zweiten Weltkrieg" by Paul Robert Skawran, 1969

Skawran did war-time interviews with several prominent Luftwaffe personalities. He categorizes the pilots into various character types, and describes the psychological and physical characteristics of each one in some detail.

• "Luftwaffe Efficiency & Promotion Reports, vols. 1 & 2" by French L. MacLean, 2007

MacLean's work consists of a collection of 113 promotion reports for Luftwaffe Knight's Cross winners, written by their superiors (89 of the reports are for pilots, with 58 being for fighter pilots.)
The reports tell us, for example, that:
- Hans Ehlers came "from a simple way of life"
- Anton Döbele could "be harsh and one-sided in judging people"
- Rudolf Rademacher became "somewhat disinterested and stubborn"
- Wolfgang Schenck appeared "to have lost his spirit for battle"
- Heinz Schnaufer was "somewhat shy" and "a little too soft at the front."

Each person's report features a reproduction of the original document, a short biography, and most include a photo. Also, the appendix includes short biographies of the officers who authored the promotion reports.

Hope that helps,
Leon Venter

[yogybär]

I read the famous (german) III./JG54 book "Axel Urbanke, mit Fw190 D-9 im Einsatz". I got the impression that Dortenmann was a very good and indeed notbrainless believer in "Endsieg" or such. He was critical against senseless orders and fought against the enemy as a good soldier should.

Yes, one can (and maybe should) interprete this as negative under the given circumstances. Anyway, my "feeling" after the book is that he was a very good pilot and commander. Indeed, I like the image of him I got from that book.

One example: One day, his Gruppe had very high losses due to bad orders. His Staffel got the same idiotic orders. He did not follow them, his Staffel achieved some success and had no (or verys low) losses.

[NickM]

Originally Posted by yogybär

I read the famous (german) III./JG54 book. I got the impression that Dortenmann was a very good and indeed notbrainless believer in "Endsieg" or such. He was critical against senseless orders and fought against the enemy as a good soldier should.

Yes, one can (and maybe should) interprete this as negative under the given circumstances. Anyway, my "feeling" after the book is that he was a very good pilot and commander. Indeed, I like the image of him I got from that book.

One example: One day, his Gruppe had very high losses due to bad orders. His Staffel got the same idiotic orders. He did not follow them, his Staffel achieved some success and had no (or verys low) losses.

Thanks, that's the sort of stuff I was interested in; no doubt Dortenmann was a VERY skilled pilot & kept lots of his 'team' alive by virtue of said skill & leadership....but at the same time he DID put on a BIG push to get that Knight's Cross...

nm

[Ruy Horta]

Originally Posted by leonventer

Hi Nick,
Agreed, but here are a couple of resources that are worth considering:

• "Ikaros: Persönlichkeit und Wesen des deutschen Jagdfliegers im Zweiten Weltkrieg" by Paul Robert Skawran, 1969

• "Luftwaffe Efficiency & Promotion Reports, vols. 1 & 2" by French L. MacLean, 2007

Leon Venter

Leon,

How are these two titles in general?

Ikaros I've seen quoted from before, but the MacLean book is new to me.

[leonventer]

Ruy,

Originally Posted by Ruy Horta

How are these two titles in general?

Ikaros I've seen quoted from before, but the MacLean book is new to me.

Skawran's "Ikaros" is a detailed study of the psychological and physical makeup of fighter pilots in general, and several Luftwaffe aces in particular. It's especially valuable because Skawran spent most of the war with Luftwaffe units, and he interviewed many of the men he describes.

The chapter headings and page counts are as follows:
1. The pilot in comparison with members of the other armed services (3 pages)
2. The personalities of fighter pilots in the First World War (4 pages)
3. The period between the two world wars and its influence on the emergent people (18 pages)
4. The fighter pilot types of the Second World War (78 pages)
5. The exhiliration of flying and fighting (6 pages)
6. A comparison of the fighter pilot types of the First and Second World Wars (36 pages)
7. The development of the fighter pilot (34 pages)
8. The living conditions of fighter pilots (10 pages)
9. The beliefs/values/motivations of fighter pilots (8 pages)
10. Ikaros (3 pages)
Bibliography
Name Index

Chapter 4 is the heart of the book, in which Skawran describes around 30 Luftwaffe aces in varying degrees of detail and categorizes them as follows:

• Die "Genialen"
• Die Kämpfer
  • Der Kraftvolle Kämpfer
  • Der sture Draufgänger
  • Der Führertyp
• Die stetigen Könner
  • Die Harmonisch-Kraftvollen
  • Die Kaczmareks
• Die "Sonnenvögel"
• Die Kindlich-Naiven
• Die ehrgeizig-feinnervigen Jäger
  • Die Intellektuellen und die Sensitiv-Vitalen
  • Die Schießer

(See http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?p=29485 for Skawran's description of Oesau.)


MacLean's contribution is not as significant as Skawran's, but it's useful because it highlights a primary document type that's been neglected, namely the Luftwaffe's personnel evaluation reports. You might consider getting his two-volume work if you're interested in:

• the criteria and documents that were involved in Luftwaffe evaluations
• the general nature and values of Luftwaffe pilots and unit commanders
• the specific qualities of the 113 covered men, and the attitudes and styles of their superiors

The reports provide interesting insights and they enable you to get a bit closer to the people and the times. For example, a great deal of importance was placed on appearance, social skills and manners, and most evaluations contain a variation of the statement: "He is firmly rooted in National Socialist ideology."

Regards,
Leon Venter

[Franek Grabowski]

Sorry, it is not about Dortenmann.

[NickM]

That's OK...

nickm