Early Bf109 and Ju88
 

Take a look at this link http://www.moskittech.ru/eng/myze.htm
Pictures from Russian archives.

Regards Anders

Re: Early Bf109 and Ju88
 

The Bf 109 B-1 was captured in Spain.

Regards,
Primoz

Re: Early Bf109 and Ju88
 

Hi all,
this machine was coded 6-15 and force-landed intact on 11. November 1937.

What puzzles me, is the position of the oil cooler in photo #18: It seems to be in a different position compared with other machines with a Jumo-engine. In this picture the position seems to be much closer to the wing root than in the “normal” position (the oil cooler normally lies closely behind the wheel well, thus beeing much further outboard)



IIRC this repositioning was mentioned in one of the polish “monografie”(?) magazines by R. Michulec (sorry if spelled wrongly!). It was stated, that the position was changed after the first few machines. Neither the book by Radinger/Schick (versions A-E) nor one of the works from Mr. Prien seems to mention this.

Could it be that this repositioning was a difference between the version “A” and “B”?

Has anybody further information (explanation and/or documentation) concerning this repositioning?

Thanks in advance

Ralph

Re: Early Bf109 and Ju88
 

The Ju 88 A-1 is also very interesting. It carries a civilian registration and what looks like an export camouflage pattern (probably 3 topside colors). I guess it was delivered in the context of the Stalin-Hitler Pact.

Who knows more? What did the topside camouflage pattern look like?

Re: Early Bf109 and Ju88
 

Hi all,

Seems this Ju 88 is ´D-AXVM´ perhaps W.Nr. 0880050 (i.e. ´50´ is seen on u/c leg <as Bernburg mounted ones usually had in the beginnig> and an JFM like ´part plate´ is beside the rear upper gun, seen in photo 23 but is out of focus). This is clearly an early A-1 with the HF (High Frequency) trailing antenna wire mast under right side of fuselage and straight demarcation line of fuselage colours (running straight from flap to tail wheel bay).

The original RLM colours seem to have been oversprayed on wings and fuselage (giving soft edges) with perhaps ´standard Soviet camouflage´ of Dark Green, Dark Earth (Brown) and Light Blue.

Information on other Soviet flown / exported examples whould be interesting. Is it true they also got two Ju 88 A-O´s in 1939?

cheers

Re: Early Bf109 and Ju88
 

I don't think it was Soviet camouflage. It must have been the original camo it was delivered in. The German registration ("D-AXVM") remained untouched and the Nazi flag on the tail fin was only lightly overpainted with the white disc still showing through. I went through some books last night and found a few pix of Soviet (early) Ju 88s. It was mentioned somewhere that the Ju 88 in question was one of two Ju 88 K (export version of the Ju 88 A-1). But the Russioans also had at least one Ju 88 A-0 with 4-bladed props and a WL-... registration (and the usual 70/71 camo).I think the Soviet Ju 88 A-1 (or K) carried a 3-color camouflage on its upper surfaces and sides and it must have been either RLM 61/62/63 (like the Hungarian Ju 86s and Rumanian He 111s) or a special export camo (two greens and sand, I think it was RLM 67/68/69, like the Austrian Ju 86s).

Re: Early Bf109 and Ju88
 

The export colours are now thought of as being a myth. The colours are likely to be 61/62/63 as suggested above, to a factory-designed pattern.

Re: Early Bf109 and Ju88
 

Hey guys,
have you checked the photos #16-18 and 23 of the Ju 88? To me it doesn't look like the cockpit of a Ju 88, but from a Do 17. What do you think?

Re: Early Bf109 and Ju88
 

Well, some export Ju 86s carried a 3-color camouflage consisting of two greens and a sand color (but I don't know if this was an official export camo scheme).

Re: Early Bf109 and Ju88
 

This is often illustrated, but was it real? Where have you got this information from?

In the case of Swedish aircraft, it has been shown that the colours were the original prewar trio. I cannot confirm that this has been demonstrated for the Hungarian ones (though I think I've seen a colour photo), but the Austrian ones were uncamouflaged, I believe.

Re: Early Bf109 and Ju88
 

I've only got two sources: one is an IPMS Austria decal sheet for the Ju 86 and the other is this photo: http://www.luftwaffepics.com/LCBW/Ju86E-3.jpg

The latter could be a Hungarian Ju 86 (considering the intake under the engine and "something" (I'm afraid I don't know what it is) above (aft of the engine, that is). It isn't Swedish, but Swedish Ju 86s were painted RLM 61/62/63 anyway as you've pointed out (I think I've seen a color photo somewhere sometime ...).

It's not really an airtight case but the IPMS Austria sheet seems to be well researched.

Re: Early Bf109 and Ju88
 

I think this is a colorised b+w picture not a true period colour, and so will have been touched up with the "expected" colours not necessarily the real ones. Interesting, though.
Certainly the colours and schemes on German export aircraft are less than perfectly documented - or at least published.

Re: Early Bf109 and Ju88
 

Ok. Primoz and others. Will not debate on actual colurs used,
but the D-AXVM (ferry?) registration has likely been painted after the green / brown colours were applied. Primoz mentions an WL- registration. What was that registration, and is there an visible W.Nr. or can you or anyone else post pictures?

Ah - yes. Some photos on that website are indeed not from an Ju 88 cockpit, but an Do 17 Z ...

Anyway - does anyone know how many Ju 88 A´s with the HF antenna under the right side were built?

Re: Early Bf109 and Ju88
 

Merrick covers the use of 61/62/63 for export airxraft after the introduction of 70/71 on LW acft.

Re: Early Bf109 and Ju88
 

Hi again,

...is anyone out there that can confirm the W.Nr. for Ju 88 A-1?
...has anyone acess to the original JFM records for the period in question (was it in late 1939 or May/June 1940).

Re: Early Bf109 and Ju88
 

There's photo of a Ju 88 A-0 with the rather unusual registration WL-008 in the book Under the Red Star (by Carl-Fredrik Geust) (p. 77). The text says, "Two Junkers Ju 88 bombers were delivered from Germany to the Soviet Union in 1940". The Werknummer was "possibly W Nr 5023". Unfortunately, it's the other a/c - the A-0 with 4-bladed props and standard 70/71 camo.

Re: Early Bf109 and Ju88
 

Hello Mr. Primoz,

Thanks. This books title is not new-to-me (I saw it advertized some years ago) but I do not own it and cannot comment on its true accuracy, even if the author tells he does not know for certain ...

However a photo of Ju 88 ´A-0´ WL+008 has been around in books since the 1960´s at least (and many other WL-... ´letters or numbers´ are known for other types, but I do not keep a list of them... ). I first saw ´the now famous left side view´ photo of WL+008 in one of Willam Green´s many books on German WW2 aircraft (´way back when anyone belived them as beeing THE truth´) but I have never actually before seen comment´s on that machine going to the Soviet Union!

I do know of one website listing 5023 ´D-UXVM´.

Does anyone else have information to confirm or dispell this is really D-AXVM. There must by dosens of Ju 88 specalists out there dying to comment... (Ok - I know we are at the Luftwaffe forum, but while it still carries German codes or registrations it must be valid!)

Cheers.

Re: Early Bf109 and Ju88
 

Well, D-UXVM mut be wrong as all heavier multi-engined aircraft carried D-A... registrations.

Re: Early Bf109 and Ju88
 

Yes, I know but is 5023 then also wrong! Was it listed on <I belive Mr. Zoeller´s> the website first or did he get his info from the book ´Under the Red Star´. The Soviet photos starting all this discussion in the beginning show only ´50´ on the undercarriage leg.