Bodenwöhr Waldwerk - Mtt Bf 109 K-4 assembly lines 1944 - 1945
 

Hi there gang,

The subject of the MTT delocalized assembly lines in the Vilseck, Cham-Michelsdorf area, north-east of Regensburg, has a new impetus over on LEMB, thanks to Matthias, who brings highly interesting new informations:
Among the treats, a great shot taken in December 1944 at Cham - Michelsdorf, showing a wingless BF 109 G-10 or K-4 parked outside a restaurant in the old town... Lovely!

http://www.luftwaffe-experten.org/fo...61&#entry49861

Roland, any new facts about this topic? I'm still wondering about this Waldwerk said to be next to Wertheim... Matthias considers the Bodenwöhr Waldwerk as a more likely location for the Mtt Bf 109 K-4 production line. Thanks to him for those inputs.

Cheers
Marc

Re: Bodenwöhr Waldwerk - Mtt Bf 109 K-4 assembly lines 1944 - 1945
 

Hi Marc,
yes, I have read this topic and I´ve tried to get more information. Of corse I know the Bodenwöhr-Cham Mtt production line because it is a parallel to the Flossenbürg-Vilseck Production line. But only connected by production sites for the minor accessoires. In both cases the backbone is the railway net of the Reichsbahn, until the birds have been airworthy. After that the distribution was rather easy.
The photograph of the Bf109 being pulled from Michelsdorf through the centre of Cham to Cham freight yard is very interesting, but if I´d show you the tranport route of the wingless Bf109 fuselages from KZ Flossenbürg production site to Flossenbürg railway station you´d certainly regard this as more than adventurous and it shows the difficulties Mtt had to cope with for the sake of concealment.
And - the designations of the production sites are misleading. For secrecy purposes, I presume. The records name the next larger town - little settlements with a railway station in most cases.
Mtt Flossenbürg is KZ Flossenbürg
Mtt Flossenbürg is Altenhammer
Mtt Vilseck is Heringnohe
Mtt Bodenwöhr is Mappach
Mtt Cham is Michelsdorf
and so on, so it is difficult to keep track. I am sure there are no files in the respective town administrations, at least none about technical details and production. If not in hands of EADS most material might be in US hands.
I tried to get plans of Heringnohe airfield but to no avail. At least I discovered the corpus of the secondary railway track leading from Vilseck to Heringnohe airfield. The site itself nowadays is part of US Grafenwöhr training ground and thus not accessible. Even the ultra-light gliders weren´t allowed to land there after 9/11.
Concerning the Wertheim caption I haven´t found mentioned this site in any publication. Even the list of reparation sites in Germany lists it, though tiniest sites like Pfreimd and Neustadt are mentioned. But that´s no proof because Vilseck and Cham are missing...

http://www.digitalis.uni-koeln.de/Re...chelt35-47.pdf

Other lists are including the above-mentioned sites - but not "Wertheim":

http://images.library.wisc.edu/Histo...sdam.i0012.pdf

To be honest, any of the before-mentioned sites except from KZ Flossenbürg might be "Wertheim". Dense pine woods were the reason for Mtt to disperse their production into the Northern Bavarian forests.

Regards

Roland

Re: Bodenwöhr Waldwerk - Mtt Bf 109 K-4 assembly lines 1944 - 1945
 

Hi Roland,
thanks a lot for that input! You are very right, that every location theoretical could be "Wertheim", but I think we could do a cutback of options. Both Waldwerke near Regensburg, Gauting and Stauffen produced the Me 262 to the end of war, so I think they're out. The only left, produced complete fuselages are Bodenwöhr and Flossenbürg and Cham and Vilseck as recievers of the fuselages. So I think those four are the only candidates left. Especially the following picture some time ago catched my attention. It looks like this fuselages are standing deeper in a forrest than just on the edge, like it could have been in Cham, since there are only small wooded areas. Roland do you have any pictures (old of new) or maps of any of those sites you could share? Or would you point out the locations on Google earth (Vilseck and Flossenbürg). Did Flossenbürg production took place in the forrest near Altenhammer? I would be greatfull for and further information.
You are right, no chance to find anything in the respective town administrations:(
If I'll find some time on the weekend I'll visit the Bodenwöhr site and take some pictures of the former Mtt. areal. I could share them here if you're interested.
With regards

Matthias

Re: Bodenwöhr Waldwerk - Mtt Bf 109 K-4 assembly lines 1944 - 1945
 

Servus, Matthias,
"Wertheim" can be defined, I think. You´re sure Hagelstadt was out of Bf109 production in April 1945? Then we can sort it out. But it would fit into the picture. The fuselages are stored on a "Holzrückeweg" which obviously has not been used for lumbering purposes for a couple of years. This implies a rather large piece of forest which would exclude Michelshofen with its tiny piece of forest. In KZ Flossenbürg there exist no Holzrückewege for obvious reasons and Altenhammer is hidden deep in the valley with no direct connection to a plain forest area.
Weissenohe might fit and Mappach looks good, too.
Here are the Google coordinates for:
the two KZ Flossenbürg production sites
49.73813,12.353944
49.73811,12.348171
Altenhammer
49.730558,12.325287
Heringnohe
49.62906,11.783609 - I have marked the traces of the airfield railway. Zooming is deliberately blocked by the US because of the military facilities. If you´re wanting a better resolution and excellent maps, go here and look for "Sorghof" or "Heringnohe":
http://www.geodaten.bayern.de/BayernViewer/index.cgi

Flossenbürg and Altenhammer production did not take place in the forests but almost in the open. Whereas Altenhammer production hall was well hidden in a deep and narrow valley you can figure out why the Nazis dared to produce openly within the KZ area...

Concerning Mappach it would be interesting to know whether there was some kind of transport railway to the station such as the one between "Stauffen" and Obertraubling.

The distance between Michelsdorf and Cham railway station is huge IMO. Most interesting is the possibility that the Messerschmitts might have been tugged across the Regen bridge which later was filming site for Bernhard Wickis "Die Brücke"...

I´m looking forward to your pics. Btw, did you have contact with Peter Schmoll? He seems to be well-informed about Mtt production in the direct surroundings of Regensburg, but stays rather calm concerning the "outer rim" of the Mtt web.

Regards

Roland

Re: Bodenwöhr Waldwerk - Mtt Bf 109 K-4 assembly lines 1944 - 1945
 

Hi Matthias,

What makes you so sure about Gauting?
This Waldwerk did only produce parts of the Me 262.
Main production was the Bf 109 till the end of the war.
Also the Bf 109 K-4 was produced there. By night the completed airplanes were towed with their tail on a truck and without wings to the airfield of Obertraubling via the Reichsstraße 15 (now B15).
Here the wings were attached and the acceptance flights were made.
Stauffen did produce the Me 262, which was also transported to Obertraubling via a small railway track along the Autobahn. Acceptance flights were conducted at Obertraubling.
I think it's not that easy to rule Gauting out as a possible location for these pictures.

Ciao,
Matthias
(same Name, but another one)

Re: Bodenwöhr Waldwerk - Mtt Bf 109 K-4 assembly lines 1944 - 1945
 

Servus, Matthias(the other one),

that´s what I recall from memory - so Hagelstadt (code name "Gauting")stays as one of the contenders. The method of transport is the same as in Flossenbürg - but with the truck as braking agent. The transport route is awfully steep - about 150 meters height within a distance of 1800 meters to the railway station. Here the completed fuselages were loaded on stake cars and ferried to Vilseck-Heringnohe, where the wings were attached. Acceptance flights were made at Amberg-Schafhof, Mtt test pilots ferrying the Bf109s from Vilseck to Schafhof. Same goes with Michelsdorf.

Regards

Roland

Re: Bodenwöhr Waldwerk - Mtt Bf 109 K-4 assembly lines 1944 - 1945
 

Hi all,
thank you Roland for the Coordinates and ähm yes , "servus" :)
Very good analysis of the terrain at this spots.
Matthias (the other one) is completely right. It was my mistake, Gauting also produced K4 types in the 330105-330491 Werknummern Block. Twisted it with Stauffen. From 331323-335210 Cham is named as supplier. Seems that Gauting was more specialized on G-6 and G-14/AS types to the end of war. But I can only rever to the book of Peter Schmoll "Die Messerschmitt-Werk im zweiten Weltkrieg". Please disabuse if I am wrong.
So I think Gauting is still in in that case. Had someone ever been to Gauting and checked the look nowadays?
In Bodenwöhr the finished fuselages where brought to the narrow train station here: ( 49°15'52.39"N / 12°22'47.00"O )by trucks. Resilent bridges up to 10 tons can still be found in that forrest.
Roland you are right, Peter Schmoll would be the right man on this topic, but I'm as well not in contact with him. He did research in the U.S. archives for over two years. I guess he's way better informed than we are :) .
I think I'll be in Bodenwöhr this weekend, than I'll post some pictures.
Found that Bodenwöhr also delivered spare-parts for Me 262 :
http://www.ww2f.com/wwii-today/10997-me-262-a.html look on post #21
There was also a HP i have seen already in the past, but it seems down at the moment. But that's just a minor matter.
I post a picture of a strange armor plate I found in Bodenwöhr. Never seen something similar to this. I know, it's not the right threat, but perhaps you have any idea. But that's also minor matter :)
That's it for today:)


Greez
Matthias

Re: Bodenwöhr Waldwerk - Mtt Bf 109 K-4 assembly lines 1944 - 1945
 

Hi Guys,

Thanks for bringing up the topic of the Waldwerke round Regensburg, because it is one of my main interests.
I have been to Gauting several times. You can find "slight traces" of the Waldwerk, if you know where to look.
There are some stones of the basis of the wing assembly hall visible and some walls (about 30cm high) of a small building, presumably the guard house, are left.
I once met an old man there, who told me where they put out the tracks of the small railway line of the factory in the 1950's.

Regarding the Amberg acceptance flights - here is an interesting page:

http://www.flugplatz-amberg-schafhof.de/

Bye,
Matthias (the other one :-))

Re: Bodenwöhr Waldwerk - Mtt Bf 109 K-4 assembly lines 1944 - 1945
 

Roland, Matthias and Mathias the other,

It's a real treat to read your posts: put together, your knowledge gives back some fascinating flesh on those evanescent Waldwerke. I can see and follow your conclusions and interrogations about one place being more probable then another for the "Wertheim" alias Gaunting or Bodenwöhr Waldwerke and this is most interesting.

By following up this rich thread, my main concern remains to tie down geographically the hard evidence given by the US photographs taken in 1945 somewhere "near Wertheim".

With this caption given as certain, I can tie down the following published imagery:

Noro, H. (2009), LO+ST, Dainippon Kaiga:
- p. 100 - 101, pictures 135 and 136: , showing wingless and engineless Bf 109 K-4's stacked along a "Holzrückeweg" in a huge forest "near Wertheim"
- p. 102, picture 137: a railroad tunnel with tracks which portal has been fitted with wooden doors, and with both a pair of Bf 109 wings stacked againt the outer side walls and a third pair lying on the tracks "near Wertheim"

Poruba, T. and Mol, K. (2000): Messerschmitt Bf 109K, camouflage and markings, JaPo:
- p 40: "unfinisehd Bf 109K-4s captured at Wertheim". This is exactly the one and same scene then pics #135 - #136 published by Hideki Noro: engineless and wingless Bf 109 K-4's stacked on both sides of an "Holzrückeweg", most probably taken at about the same period of the year: the fully dressed GI's and the amount of dead leaves on the soil makes one think those shots were taken in early spring or late autumn 1945.

There ends published pictures with "near Wertheim" captions, and thus, our certitudes. There is one unique aspect to be seen on all airframes, pointed out by Tomas Poruba and Kees Mol as a very specific camouflage scheme: bottom of the fuselages was left unpainted, and only a thick looking wavy line of sprayed RLM 76 is to be found on the lower fuselage, cutting off the RLM 81/83 segment and mottle scheme. This is especially shown to its advantage on picture 136 (Noro 2009, 101).


Now, let's look at the possibly connected pictures - based on this odd camouflage with a wavy RLM 76 line cutting off the dark segments and mottles on the lower fuselage and metal bare bottom fuselage:

A. Hideki Noro publishes a dump of Bf 109K-4's fuselages "location unknown" (Noro 2009, 104, pic #139). They do show the same wavy RLM 76 line cutting off the dark segments and mottles on the lower fuselage and metal bare bottom fuselage.
B. This pic ties up with another one published by WW2vet on Flickr: http://www.flickr.com/photos/4036184...38498/sizes/o/. This picture discussed already here on the board http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=17708 does show exactly the same wavy RLM 76 line, a feature noticed by both SMF144 and Ouidjat in the discussion thread.

Both those pics do with a high degree of probability show the same fuselage dump in a time setting which must be winter 1945 - 1946, judging by the bare trees and the coldweather gear and gloves of the US personnel standing among the fuselages on pic #139 (Noro 2009, 104).

This ends both the published and unpublished photographical evidence so far... Taking it now to a bit wider circle, I can mention also picture # 138 (Noro 2009, 103) showing at least 8 wingless Bf 109K-4's sitting on an "Holzrückeweg". As they are taken from above, one cannot see the specific camo pattern with the RLM 76 wavy line and the bare metal fuselage bottom. No clear common link thus, but interesting to bear in mind when one thinks of the Waldwerke photographs.

One last point to take into account when thinking on this "near Wertheim" typical camouflage pattern. I perused all published Bf 109K-4 pictures available to me and found at least three operational machines with this same camouflage pattern:

- Bf 109 K-4, W.Nr. unknown, "Black 1" of 10. /JG 51, Ronne stadium, 4th May 1945 (Poruba and Mol 2000, 70 - 73).
- Bf 109 K-4, W. Nr unknown, JG 52 (?), Ceske Budejovice, May 1945, (Poruba and Mol 2000, 63).
- Bf 109 K-4, W. Nr unknown "White 8", JG 52 (?), May 1945 (Poruba and Mol 2000, 46 - 47). This one is illustrated by stills of a colour fim shot by the US Army; the film can be seen on Youtube.


As you see, gang, the "near Wertheim" caption is a real treat for further research...

Cheers
Marc

Re: Bodenwöhr Waldwerk - Mtt Bf 109 K-4 assembly lines 1944 - 1945
 

The tunnel makes me wonder - unfortunately I don´t own LO+ST.

Maybe a tunnel just like that?:

http://www.eisenbahn-tunnelportale.d...tale/5213.html

Re: Bodenwöhr Waldwerk - Mtt Bf 109 K-4 assembly lines 1944 - 1945
 

Roland,

here goes the scans of the pics published by Hideki Noro:

Image1: Noro 2009, pic. 135
Image2: Noro 2009, pic. 136
Image3: Noro 2009, pic. 137
Image4: Noro 2009, pic. 139
Image5: Noro 2009, pic. 138

Cheers
Marc

Re: Bodenwöhr Waldwerk - Mtt Bf 109 K-4 assembly lines 1944 - 1945
 

Dear all,

a very interesting thread! The railway tunnel in the bw photo scanned by Marc very strongly resembles the “Schloßberg-Tunnel, Nordportal, vom Bahnhof Kreuzwertheim,” as found on the website for which RolandF picked out the link!

Karl

Re: Bodenwöhr Waldwerk - Mtt Bf 109 K-4 assembly lines 1944 - 1945
 

Hi there Karl,

I concur: Schlossberg-Tunnel, Nordportal.

Roland, you did it! Hooray!

Cheers
Marc

Re: Bodenwöhr Waldwerk - Mtt Bf 109 K-4 assembly lines 1944 - 1945
 

here another photo of the tunnel nowadys with a bit more of the enviroment:

http://home.arcor.de/bluejacket13/bi...eite_dez90.jpg

Today the tunnel is a parking garage:

http://www.bkffm.siemavisuart.de/bunker/wertheim.html


Karl

Re: Bodenwöhr Waldwerk - Mtt Bf 109 K-4 assembly lines 1944 - 1945
 

Gentlemen,

great disscusion indeed with a lot of new information on late war production.

As for the “Wertheim” debate: US-Forces found quite a few Bf 109 K-4s at Wertheim :early in April 1945 and reported them as Werknummern 334.060, 334.063, 334.067, 334.070, 334.071, 334.082, 334.084, 334.087, 334.099, 334.101, 334.102, 334.108, 334.112 and 334.114. (AI-report A331). Also Flugkaptän Anton Riediger had an acceptance-flight with 3334.066 at Wertheim Airfield on 23.03.1945.

These Werknumern fit neatly into a limited Werknummern-range, so this is not mere coincidence. Aircraft within the Werknummerblock 334.0xx and 334.1xx belong to the Cham-Airfiled final-assembly complex. With accepance-dates around late March 1945 so the a/c at Wertheim were new ones. When comparing the camouflage we have to look on a/c from Cham, not Wertheim.

At the moment I am working on an essay on late war production of Bf 109s which perhaps with some luck may be published in the future . AFAIK Wertheim never was integrated into Messerschmitt-Regensburgs infrastructure, original Messerschmitt documents are quite clear on this. On the other hand – there is a simple reason why this a/c were found at Wertheim and not at Cham. Please let me have some more time to fix this.

HTH

Carl

Re: Bodenwöhr Waldwerk - Mtt Bf 109 K-4 assembly lines 1944 - 1945
 

Hello,

Frankly, it's the first time I get the feeling something happens in these forums. And it's clear to read. Thanks gentlemen.
Franck.

Re: Bodenwöhr Waldwerk - Mtt Bf 109 K-4 assembly lines 1944 - 1945
 

Slowly, gentlemen, slowly:)

Schlossbergtunnel may be the solution. But this building is just the beginning of an abandoned railway line leading from Wertheim to Lohr am Main.
Two further tunnels are joining north of Schloßberg, close to Wertheim but within the confineries of Kreuzwertheim; Kaffelsteintunnel and Bettingbergtunnel. Because of the same engineering the tunnels are quite similar:

http://home.arcor.de/bluejacket13/xs...hrerbahn2.html

This may not seem important but Wertheim is a "border"town, Kreuzwertheim being already on the Bavarian side of the river Main. So any sites north of the Main would be listed after the war under "Bavaria" for this tunnels, but the rest (like Schlossbergtunnel) under "Baden-Württemberg" or "Württemberg-Baden".
As we have seen, distance is no problem for airplane transport and there´s still the railway leading from any tunnel to Wertheim.
Fliegerhorst Wertheim is situated on a plateau above the city itself.

Why all this? Before we are thinking about how Bodenwöhr-Mappach or Cham-Michelsdorf worked we have to find out how Wertheim was linked to the Mtt system.
Otoh the equipment of Wertheim site might have been so poor that it hadn´t been listed in the reparation files.

Regards

Roland

Edit: The designation Kreuzwertheim may be interesting, too. As we have known, Nazi administration named the next-larger city and allied troops did not make any difference or did not notice it.

Re: Bodenwöhr Waldwerk - Mtt Bf 109 K-4 assembly lines 1944 - 1945
 

Dear Carl,

Thanks so much for your W.Nr. input. Glad also to know you're working on an essay on this highly fascinating topic. Looking forward to read you, the sooner the better!

Dear Ouidjat,

on s'améliore avec le temps;-))). Getting better with time...

Servus Roland!

I closely checked the masonry work of the tunnel portal photographed in 1945 (Noro 2009, p. 102, pic #137). The layout of the stones of the three upper masonry courses above and right of the tunnel entrance are one and the same with the current photograph depicting the northern entrance of the tunnel of Kreuzwertheim.

From a stonework analysis point of view, a very common technique in my - archaeological - field, this settles the case: the three sets of Bf 109 wings depicted on pic #137 were discarded in front of the Northern entrance of the Kreuzwertheim Tunnel. A check of the masonnry of all the other tunnel entrances shown on this internet site do differ, sometimes radically.

Many many thanks for pinpointing this unknown assembly/repair site. Any possibility to have the GoogleEarth coordinates? As you rightly point out, the toughest remains to be settled: since when was there a link between Wertheim and Mtt Regensburg and how did it work?

Cheers
Marc

Re: Bodenwöhr Waldwerk - Mtt Bf 109 K-4 assembly lines 1944 - 1945
 

Salut Marc,

it´s good to have the archaeologist´s eagle´s eye at hand!
So it is this tunnel:

http://home.arcor.de/bluejacket13/bi...ite1_dez90.jpg

But this is according to the railway web site the northern mouth of Schlossberg tunnel - here the Google coordinates:
49.759846,9.523902
49.755895,9.519868
Here we are standing on Baden-Württemberg territory. The tunnel is 617 m long and ends at the other side of the Schlossberg looking over the river Tauber crossed by an railway bridge out of use which is still standing:

http://www.geodaten.bayern.de/Bayern...ayer=TK&step=2

Click the button "Historische Karte" on this webpage and you´ll see the course of this railway. Crossing the Main the tracks reach a 2nd tunnel, the Kaffelstein tunnel (229 m long):
49.763568,9.526466
49.764281,9.529384

http://www.geodaten.bayern.de/Bayern...er=Hist&step=1

Click "Karte" to switch to a current map.

Not to mention the third tunnel some hundreds of meters to the east (Bettingberg tunnel). Though the tunnel is rather narrow ( no attachment of wings possible), this reminds me a lot of WNF´s Diana workshops near Tisinov, production site of the Bf109G-10/U4 (see Japo´s publication)

Is there any progress with the W.Nr.?

Regards

Roland

Re: Bodenwöhr Waldwerk - Mtt Bf 109 K-4 assembly lines 1944 - 1945
 

Hi guys,
thank you so much for that great stuff, good nose on finding that tunnel Roland. I love that pictures out of Hideki Noro's book, especially #138. Do that straight arranged fuselages have the same painting in any characteristic than the "Wertheim" ones. Never saw them before. And thank you Carl for that Werknummern.
Since they're fitting into the Cham Block I woundered if it isn't possible, that the K-4 where delivered to Wertheim airfield by Mtt. Cham to be brought into service.
By the appoaching of the U.S troops the airfield administration decided to evacuate the left equipment by train. The fighters where demounted and brought to places where they should get picked up.
That's just hypothetical and sorry if thats sounds stupid, but I just can't see, why they schould have build up a further assembly workshop so far away of the remaining supply chain. Does this make sence in any way?
By the way, I've been to Bodenwöhr today. For those who are interested, the pictures will be delivered tomorrow.
Keep it running folks!

Best regards
Matthias

Re: Bodenwöhr Waldwerk - Mtt Bf 109 K-4 assembly lines 1944 - 1945
 

Hi gents,

I remember to have seen another photograph showing a GI standing along a row of DB 605 engines still mounted on their trolleys at Wertheim. I have to check my books...

Karl

Re: Bodenwöhr Waldwerk - Mtt Bf 109 K-4 assembly lines 1944 - 1945
 

Hi there,

another idea, wherever this assembly line was, labor force would have been needed. So, we could try to check if there was any listed camp or branchlet of a narrow concentration camp. As far as I remeber Bodenwöhr and Vilseck were listed as Flossenbürg outposts for examble. May that be a point where we could start? I checked the terrain of the Wertheim ambit. Especially the pictures with that "heap" of fuselages won't fit into that area,
where's no 100 meter of flat field.
I would like to see what this GI is seeing when looking into that tunnel.

regards

Matthias

Re: Bodenwöhr Waldwerk - Mtt Bf 109 K-4 assembly lines 1944 - 1945
 

Dear Karl,

Your mention of DB 605D's stacked on trolleys sent me spinning once more through my bookshelves, and there I found them:

Hildebrandt, C. (1988), Broken Eagles 2, Bf 109G/K, Fighter pictorials, p. 9.

I scanned as a whole both published pictures - the DB 605D's and the wing sets in front of the northern Schlossberg tunnel entrance. Thanks for all your excellent data, Roland, they help so much to get a correct picture of the Wertheim scene. As you can see, Hildebrandt's caption also clearly states a "near Wertheim" location for the DB 605D's. Analysing the surrounding on this photograph, one notices they are parked on quite a steep street amdist partly damaged houses. Checking on GoogleEarth, I do see a possible location immediately east of the Schlossberg tunnel northern entrance: a steep road with buildings matching the position of the ones seen on the 1945 photograph. The closest trolley would be next to the grouped buildings standing between the road following the Main bank and the steep street.

Masmar, your query is very much to the point, your scenario interesting. Obviously, a lot did happen in supply channels between March and April 1945... I would be of course highly interested to see your current Bodenwöhr pictures!

Cheers
Marc

Re: Bodenwöhr Waldwerk - Mtt Bf 109 K-4 assembly lines 1944 - 1945
 

Hello gentlemen,

the engines are standing here (Google coordinates):

49.760023,9.525061

Watch the slanted building and the road slightly running uphill.

The trolleys almost certainly had been equipment meant for factory use and not for use in open air. Looks like a makeshift application of the whole thing and might have something to do with clearing of production areas due to the beginning of the Me 262 production in full scale. The placement of production into subterranean facilities was common practise of this time.

Matthias might not be wrong concerning the Waldwerk "Gauting"-Hagelstadt production of the Bf109. Schmoll quotes that "at least a part of the Bf109 production was moved to Bodenwöhr and Cham in September/October 1944".
A newspaper article mentions air attacks on Nittenau and Bodenwöhr-Mappach on 28, December 1944:

http://www.mittelbayerische.de/index...5&pk=12924&p=1

Cham-Micheldorf was attacked on 4, November 1944. Maybe the reason to get underground...

Regards

Roland

Btw, I´ve identified different photographs in common publications frequently captioned as "Bf109K-4s from Mtt Regensburg" as showing KZ Flossenbürg facilities. Anyone interested?

Re: Bodenwöhr Waldwerk - Mtt Bf 109 K-4 assembly lines 1944 - 1945
 

Hallo Roland,

Excellent, we're getting really in a great team work here! Engines and wings are now precisely located, now I'm getting real curious as to in which forest patch were the wingless and engineless fuselages dispersed... Logically, they should be further east in the forest where the steep road leads, but no precise clue can be gathered from the three pictures we have to work with (Noro 2009, pics #135 - 136; Poruba and Mol 2000, p. 40).

And yes! I would love to see your Bf 109K-4 photographs in KZ Flossenbürg facilities.

Cheers
Marc

Re: Bodenwöhr Waldwerk - Mtt Bf 109 K-4 assembly lines 1944 - 1945
 

Hi all,
hi Marc, thank you for the picture with the DB 605 engines mounted on their tolleys! For me that's really the most convincing picture when proving an assembly line and not only fragmented airplanes. I starting to belive you guys :)
It's interesting that the engines are already sub assembled. The lower engine coping with the oil cooler flap and possibly the regulation devices which don't belong directly to the engine are already mounted. That's very uncommon. Normally this happend, when the engine was allready mounted to the fuselage.
Roland, me too! I would love to see that pictures!

Regards
Matthias

Re: Bodenwöhr Waldwerk - Mtt Bf 109 K-4 assembly lines 1944 - 1945
 

Gentlemen,

a lot of new information here and a really inspiring thread. The mist around Wertheim seems to get clearer now, but please have a look at the attached pictures:

Picture "wing" shows, that the wings in front of the Wertheim tunnel have small wing-bulges and so are not intended to be fitted to K-4s. The same with the picture "engines": the large tank in front of the engine is of the smaller Fo 897 type, not the large Fo 970 shown in picture "cowlings". I also think, that the small bulges under the nose are missing. Therefore the engines are DB 605 AS and not DB 605 D type. AFAIK no AS-engines were fitted to K-4s.

As for the K-4s standing in a row within a wooded area: the camouflage is of the segmented "Flössenbürg" pattern and has no "snake" at the bottom of the fuselage. Just have a look at the attached picture "row". I have to apologize for masking this foto, but I can't remember, where it´s from and perhaps it is copyright protected (any hint on its owner wellcome!).

HTH

Carl

Re: Bodenwöhr Waldwerk - Mtt Bf 109 K-4 assembly lines 1944 - 1945
 

Hi there the Wertheim Waldwerk gang,

I just received from Kees Mol the original caption for the Schlossberg tunnel northern entrance picture (Noro, 102, pic #137). This photograph is part of a serie of six pictures taken by T/5 Robert F Stubenrauch on 2 April 1945 illustrating the Bf 109K-4's and subassemblies found "near Wertheim".

Kees kindly agrees to uploading this caption which settles the following issues:

- Place and date of the photographs
- Wertheim was considered as an assembly place for Bf 109's by the US Army
- Engines and wings were stored in the Schlossberg tunnel
- 25 airframes, covered with tarpaulins and branches were "in new condition", dispersed in the surrounding woods.

All my thanks to you, Kees!


Dear Carl,

You're correct, we have an issue here... Unless one thinks about the hectic situation the German industry tried to upkeep. A naive question first: Was there any real impossibility mating those wings and engines to Bf 109K-4's fuselages? The patchwork Bf 109K-4 "Black 1" of 10. /JG 51, Ronne stadium, 4th May 1945 (Poruba and Mol 2000, 70 - 73) certainly tells another story. It would be thus no surprise to have patchwork airframes assembled in Wertheim as a last desperate effort to finish some more machines with what was availaible; just my two cents, ofc!

- And thanks for the other pic showing those Flossenburg Bf 109K-4's neatly lined up in another forest... Roland, any other pics in this respect (I'm discreetly pointing towards your morning offer;-)))

Cheers
Marc

Re: Bodenwöhr Waldwerk - Mtt Bf 109 K-4 assembly lines 1944 - 1945
 

Hi guys,
in addition the promissed pictures of the Bodenwöhr Waldwerk remains. There's not much left beside some transportation tacks in crossed arrangement, grooves in the ground where kind of conveyers might have been installed, a helmet left by a guard, some barbwire, the former shooting range is still visible and a lot of 13mm bullets can be found at it's end. The areal is pretty big. From it's center you can go 300 metre before reaching the border. Assembly stand can be identified by relics which are still in the ground. This has nothing to do with the Wertheim assambly, but might be interesting as well.

Thousand thanks to Kess for making that picture available and thank you Marc for posting it. I demonstrate respect for how you all fixed that pieces of the puzzle together.
So, Wertheim is proven as a further chain link in this end-war Messerschmitt production complex.
Questions which are still open are:
- In which degree was produced and when did it start?
-Why are the in Wertheim found fuslages within the Cham Werknummern-block?
- Was there a sub-assembly as well or did they recieve the finished wings an fuslages for final assy. That's especially important on the question where this "snake-painting-style" came from and where is the link to that pictures with the heap of K-4- fuslages?
-Who delivered the devices?
-Where they integrated into Mtt. Regensburg
Perhaps this might be the next steeps, now that we see the Wertheim situation much clearer. I know that's no easy task, but i would wish, that we can find some more details, maybe at least fractional.

Matthias

Re: Bodenwöhr Waldwerk - Mtt Bf 109 K-4 assembly lines 1944 - 1945
 

Hi Marc,

I didn´t forget my offer. My scanner is in my office, so I´m able to scan the pics tomorrow.
All I can say up to now is - the fuselages wear classic Flossenbürg-style camouflage. Sprayed on all its surfaces with RLM 76 on the belly, RLM 83 as background for the Balkenkreuz, the rest segmented in RLM 75.
The difference to the "snaked" version seems to me the absence of RLM 76 for the belly, thus showing bare aluminum. The "snake" is a spray of RLM 76 to raise the division line outside of the Balkenkreuz for unknown reasons.
According to Schmoll producers for fuselages were
- "Gauting"-Hagelstadt
- KZ Flossenbürg
- KZ Mauthausen-Gusen

Interestingly Gusen delivers to
- Bodenwöhr-Mappach
- Vilseck-Heringnohe
- Obertraubling
but also to
- "Gauting"-Hagelstadt
- KZ Flossenbürg
Where the paintjob was done, is very confusing, the photographs being contradictory to Schmoll´s statements. Schmoll speaks about camo being applied in Vilseck, but I have almost fully-camouflaged Bf109s standing at Flossenbürg railway station. KZ prisoner Jan Szopa tells about spraying jobs in Flossenbürg. So Vilseck may have added only some corrections after having attached the wings. This may point to where such "snake"-painting may have been done...

It seems to me some parts of the final assembly originally located at Obertraubling, Cham-Micheldorf and Vilseck-Heringnohe was externalized to Wertheim.

Regarding this the "Gauting"-Hagelstadt/Obertraubling line is the main suspect for me because they were eagerly involved into the changeover towards Me262 production.

The Bf109G-14 and G-14/AS have been produced in Cham, too until March 1945. Was the Bf109K-4 final assembly taken out to Wertheim?

Considering this arguments this is my hypothesis:
-The full-camo fuselages originate from Flossenbürg and were almost completed at Vilseck and the semi-completed parts sent by rail to Wertheim for final assembly.
-The "snake" camo fuselages originate from Bodenwöhr-Mappach and were almost completed at Vilseck etc.etc.
-The pile of fuselages are roughly completed fuselages from Bodenwöhr intended for semi-completion at Vilseck. The landscape has many similarities with the countryside between Vilseck and Heringnohe. The railway on a dam at the horizon may be the Weiden-Nuremberg line passing Vilseck.
-With a certain probability you can exchange "Gauting" for Bodenwöhr.

Any corrections are welcome.

Regards

Roland

Nice photographs, Matthias. Here you can see what´s left of this "Waldwerke" after 64 years...

Re: Bodenwöhr Waldwerk - Mtt Bf 109 K-4 assembly lines 1944 - 1945
 

Hi there Matthias and Roland,

No hurry, Roland; after having settled together so many issues this week-end about known or unknown Waldwerke, I will certainly be able to catch some sleep tonight...

Thanks also to you and Matthias for summing up the questions remaining around the RLM 76 snake against bare metal issue. Your location proposal for the fuselages pile makes me feel confident this will also be solved in the near future.

Matthias, thanks for your Bodenwöhr pictures; I especially appreciate the Holzrückerweg shot, as one reflexively wonders why no airframes show on them like on the pic posted by Carl...before remembering 60+ years have now elapsed. And thanks also for your praise; but pleasse, remember you are the one to be praised for this thread: you started it all with your question over at LEMB.

By Googling, I did find quite a few websites delving with other Mtt production places like:

Eschenlohe: http://www.herbert-thiess.de/Ente/
Oberammergau: http://www.herbert-thiess.de/Laber/

Eschenlohe production unit's plan is quite fascinating, being nested in two road tunnels: http://www.herbert-thiess.de/Ente/Tunnelplan-X1200.png

Measuring the wealth of documents remaining to be published, I wish you guys unite your knowledge for accomplishing this publication which will be definitely fascinating. I will be always at the ready for any further help at analyzing surroundings shown on your pictures

Cheers
Marc

Re: Bodenwöhr Waldwerk - Mtt Bf 109 K-4 assembly lines 1944 - 1945
 

Okay, guys, here we go:

- Workshops showing fuselages in different states of main assembly - watch the machine-guns and instrument board ready to be fitted and Erla-Hauben already attached
- fuselages outside the workshop, the western hall of two Mtt assembly halls, to the left the road down to the railway station, to the right the way to the quarry. The building has disappeared, the plateau still existent with an apartment building erected on the southern part.
(source JaPO: Bf109K-camouflage and markings)
- fuselages stored at Flossenbürg railway st., in the background Flossenbürg castle with the KZ right at the foot of the hill
the hall to the left is part of the station, the hall to the right is the Mtt "Zerlegebetrieb". Area is now occupied by a factory processing light alloys.
(source EE: WOTBC 1)
last pic: workshop interior
(source web)

Regards

Roland
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...ossenbrg_1.jpg


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...ossenbrg_2.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...ossenbrg_3.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...Flossenbrg.png

Re: Bodenwöhr Waldwerk - Mtt Bf 109 K-4 assembly lines 1944 - 1945
 

Hallo Roland,

Thanks so much for sharing those pictures; I didn't know the last two ones and am very glad to have them now. They show excellently the Flossenbürg camouflage pattern.

On my side, I bring also in this thread this already often published picture documenting unpainted Bf 109K-4's fuselages found at the Plauen railway station by advancing US troops in April 1945. Source: US Air Force picture, put online on www.footnote.com:

http://www.footnote.com/image/37222738/Plauen/

From which producer were there shipped? No camouflage pattern on those ones to help us along... Any ideas on your side, Matthias, Carl and Roland?

For the sake of having a complete Wertheim file, here comes the alst known to me picture taken on 2 April 1945 (Source: Flickr)

Thanks for your continued and most appreciated contributions! I do feel thought that Peter Schmoll's book will be under the Christmas tree at my home ;-))

Cheers
Marc

PS: Carl, any other pictures of those Flossenbürg camo pattern K-4 fuselages neatly stacked along a Holzrückerweg? Those shots are very interesting.

Re: Bodenwöhr Waldwerk - Mtt Bf 109 K-4 assembly lines 1944 - 1945
 

Salut Marc,

Plauen seems a bit far off concerning the Mtt Regensburg facilities. Maybe this is already part of the Erla web?

Regards

Roland

Re: Bodenwöhr Waldwerk - Mtt Bf 109 K-4 assembly lines 1944 - 1945
 

Servus Roland,
Thank you for the Flossenbürg pictures. I never have seen one of those before.Really geat!
Your hypothesis from #30 sounds pretty plausible to me. In large parts that's my basic thought as well.
Do you have any idea how the fuselages from Bodenwöhr could have been brought to Vilseck? Was there any direct connection?

Hi Marc,
Just Yesterday I stumbled over the Plauen picture again and thought that this might be a further issue for our round :)
My first idea was that they're ones of the limited K-4 production in Erla Leipzig. That would fit geographically. What do you think?

regards
Matthias

Re: Bodenwöhr Waldwerk - Mtt Bf 109 K-4 assembly lines 1944 - 1945
 

Servus Roland and Matthias,

OK, I didn't think of Erla until now. Plauen isn't that close to Leipzig, or is it? No other thoughts right now, I will ponder on that one tonight....

And one last thought for tonight: were all Bodenwöhr - Cham airframes dispatched to assembly areas with this unique feature of having a snake-like RLM 76 pattern on the unpainted bottom of their fuselages? Is there any known variation for this producer? Beyond the W.Nr. blocks in the 334 0xx range mentionned by you, Carl, any other known W.Nr blocks?

Cheers
Marc

Re: Bodenwöhr Waldwerk - Mtt Bf 109 K-4 assembly lines 1944 - 1945
 

The Plauen photo shown is the one I posted to LEMB regarding re-confirmation of Erla K-4 production. The black arrows indicate areas of note.


http://www.luftwaffe-experten.org/fo...showtopic=8540

Best Regards,

D.B.

Re: Bodenwöhr Waldwerk - Mtt Bf 109 K-4 assembly lines 1944 - 1945
 

Gentlemen,

for this discussion the following infos might be of interest:

Final-acceptance for K-4s was done in Vilseck only for Blocks 330.xxx, 331.xxx and 332.xxx. For certain reasons some a/c of the last block were accepted at Regensburg-Prüfening, which was not a regular location for this.

Blocks 334.xxx and 335.xxx were shared between Vilseck and Cham.

The fuselages at Pauen railroad-station are for Erla-Leipzig. I do not have access to my documents, but I think I remember Plauen as location of fuselage-pre-assembly.


And now for Wertheim:

According to AI-report A-331 US-Forces found not 25 but 34 Bf 109s (and a Me 262) at Wertheim. Looking at the Werknummern of these 16 were newly built K-4s, the rest were older G-6 and G-14s. So what?

Wertheim was not part of the well documented production facilities of one of the three main producers. Wertheim was part of the Bf 109 repair-industries under supervision of Fertigungskreis F2 (which was headed by Messerschmitt AG). Repair was done there by Flumann GmbH („Flugzeugwerke Mannheim“) at least from summer 1944 onwards. Flugkapitän Anton Riedinger did some acceptance-flights there. Flumann had a BAL at Wertheim airfield, which is very near to the Schlossbergtunnel. Output perhaps was around 35 to 50 a/c a month. There was a „Zivillager“ for workers at Wertheim. The German „Zivillager“ points towards a camp for foreign-labour-workers, not for POW or KZ-prisoners.

Why then new K-4s at Wertheim? Due to weather conditions, short daylight periods and soaked airfileds during Dezember 1944 to February 1945 there were piles of finished Bf 109s standing around waiting for acceptance. Marauding allied fighters did not make things easier. To get rid of this problem, „repair-industries“ temporarily was charged with doing some acceptance-flights for Messerschmitt. We have to assume, that small numbers of finished airframes were carried to Wertheim (and elsewhere?) by rail, completed and flown in. So Wertheim for a very shot time did some work for Messerschmitt, but actually never was part of the Messerschmitt infrastructure.


HTH


Carl

Re: Bodenwöhr Waldwerk - Mtt Bf 109 K-4 assembly lines 1944 - 1945
 

Thanks Carl, for this striking explanation of the Wertheim Bf109 production - or let´s better say "final assembly"
This explains why Flossenbürg-camoed K-4s appear here, the "snake"-sprayed 109s coming obviously from Bodenwöhr. The winter season can be very hard in our part of Germany and I remember a picture of W.Nr.332 707 standing in heaps of snow.
But something else must have happened in the Vilseck - Amberg-Schafhof area in this months. A/B 43 and A/B 121 ceased to train pilots in January 1945 and from mid-February on IV./SG 151, 7./SG 151 and 10./SG 151 took their base at Schafhof, thus changing to an operational airfield. Not a good place for acceptance flights.
But the K-4s standing on the "Holzrückeweg" look as if the engines had been removed in Wertheim or on the way there. Bad weather conditions on transport? As the production pictures show, the Bf109K-4 fuselages left Flossenbürg with completed engine units. Are there any explanations?

Matthias, there´s a direct railway leading from Bodenwöhr to Vilseck via Schwandorf junction (heavily bombed on April 17, 1945) , Amberg(passing Schafhof airfield) and Neukirchen.

Regards

Roland

Re: Bodenwöhr Waldwerk - Mtt Bf 109 K-4 assembly lines 1944 - 1945
 

Hi D. B.,

Both thanks for bringing back to my memory the origin of the uploaded pic, much lighter the the Footnote one, and sorry if this caused any annoyance to you. I'm also thankful for having the Erla K-4's peculiarities brought back to my memory. I just wonder how many other pics showing elements or half finished Erla K-4's do exist in the US Army files. Would love to have some research time in front of me, but alas... gallo-roman archaeology and Museum life are a relentless issue...

Carl,

I can only concur with Roland about your masterful answer! Thanks fro sharing your knowledge wich gives us the global dimension and organization of the Wertheim assembly area, especially as discovered by the US troops on 2 April 1945. I do also appreciate very much the insight you give us about the breaking down of W.Nr blocks by production places, and the known fly-in activities.

Roland,

Thanks for settling Matthias's question; all is then very logical, and it will certainly help for pinpointing the photographed location of the Bodenwöhr snake-pattern K-4 fuselages heaps (posts #9 and #11).
As for the engineless Wertheim airframes confronted to the Flossenbürg pictures showing only airframes complete with DB 605 engines and cowlings, this is not a unique occurrence. Think of those two pictures (Noro 2009, 103 #138, and the one posted by Carl, post #27) showing a line of six+ engineless fuselages with Flossenbürg - camouflage pattern neatly stacked in-line along a "location unknown Holzrückerweg". The sunny atmosphere does contrast with the Wertheim serie of pictures, this Holzrückerweg being much closer to open space then the Wertheim one. So you have at least a second location with the same issue: engineless K-4's fuselages completely camouflaged... What might be the cause of this discrepancy? I would suggest a breakdown of the DB 605 D supply chain to some of the Flossebürg affiliated Waldwerke, leaving no option but to send the airframes to locations where waiting engines could be mated (like in Wertheim?). Let's hope that further photographic evidence remains to be discovered either at the NARA or at the PRO, giving us more factual information illustrating those fascinating issues.

Cheers
Marc