4./NJG11 Bf109 WN '1666333', lost 3-4 April 1945
 

Hello one and all,

a British ULTRA report records the loss of a 'Bf109 G6' of 4./NJG11 during Nachtschlacht sortie on the night of 3-4 April 1945. The WN of the Bf109 is recorded as '1666333', which is obviously a typo.

Does anyone have an idea what the correct WN would/could be?

Cheers

Rod

Re: 4./NJG11 Bf109 WN '1666333', lost 3-4 April 1945
 

Hello Rod,


Quite for sure 166333, it is quoted 2 times for that date, + 1 time on febr 45 with some troubled engine

Remi

Re: 4./NJG11 Bf109 WN '1666333', lost 3-4 April 1945
 

Hi RT,

thanks for that. When you say 'quoted' do you mean ULTRA or other sources?

Also, you wouldn't happen to know the surname of the Uffz. killed on the same night while piloting Bf109 G6 411493?

Cheers

Rod

Re: 4./NJG11 Bf109 WN '1666333', lost 3-4 April 1945
 

Hi RT,

have answered the first part of my own question, I found the II./NJG11 strength return d. 5/4/45, listing 166333.

Cheers

Rod

Re: 4./NJG11 Bf109 WN '1666333', lost 3-4 April 1945
 

have answered the first part of my own question, I found the II./NJG11 strength return d. 5/4/45, listing 166333.

So with this one that makes 4,

With the name I don't found any, the loss was reported twice at least, but no name pop-up

On 27.April I hv a loss for a Bf109, no Wn hptm Schulze killed , unit NAGr.13 or NJGr.11 , sic, any thought about that one ??

Rémi

Re: 4./NJG11 Bf109 WN '1666333', lost 3-4 April 1945
 

Hi Gents,
????
Don't understand.
1- 5/4/45 means 5 of April 1945 in French and 4 of May 1945 in English. Since Rémi is French and Rod from New Zealand, can you enlight me please?
2- The plane was "lost" just a little bit during the night of 3-4 April? since it's in NJG 11 strengh list one day or a month later (Cf point 1-).
Cheers, Franck.

Re: 4./NJG11 Bf109 WN '1666333', lost 3-4 April 1945
 

Hi Franck,

just a slight correction to your assumption :)

'5/4' means 5th April to the French and most of the english-speaking word, including NZ

'5/4' means 4th May to Americans.

The NJG11 strength return for 5th April ("5/4") includes the WN of aircraft on- and off-strength, and thus the WN of recent losses of aircraft are often shown. In this case, the WN of two Bf109s lost on the night 3-4 April are given in the strength return, while the actual losses are also individually reported in seperate ULTRA decypts.

Cheers

Rod

Re: 4./NJG11 Bf109 WN '1666333', lost 3-4 April 1945
 

Hi Rémi,

I haven't extracted any data from ULTRA on this loss. If you found the data in ULTRA, can you please indicate the CX/MSS/T. or R. number (i.e. T.536/R.536) and I'll have a gander through the CX/MSS/R reports...

Cheers

Rod

Re: 4./NJG11 Bf109 WN '1666333', lost 3-4 April 1945
 

I found it in Jägerblatt , I shall check

...

Rémi

Re: 4./NJG11 Bf109 WN '1666333', lost 3-4 April 1945
 

Hi gents,

Thanks for your answer Rod. Glad to know that. Nevertheless, the majority of Lost lists I've found on Net are written the american way, particularly the Kracker list which is english I suppose?! That's the reason I asked for this precision.
Regards,
Franck.

Re: 4./NJG11 Bf109 WN '1666333', lost 3-4 April 1945
 

Hi guys,

Rod, are you sure abou this Werknummer? According to Lorrant/Goyat's JG300 series, this Werknummber was lost already on 20.06.44

Bf 109G-6 WNr.411493 20.06.44 8./JG300 Ofw. Franz Knoll (verw.), Luftkampf - Absturz, FSA, Viereck/Pasewalk - 100% rt.15+

best regards,
Tomislav

Re: 4./NJG11 Bf109 WN '1666333', lost 3-4 April 1945
 

Hi Tomislav,

thanks for the interesting info.

This specific WN (411493) is referred to a couple of times in British ULTRA decrypts - in a II./NJG11 strength return for 5th April 1945 and in a ULTRA II./NJG11 QM Loss Return in April 1945.

While it is not impossible that the decrypts are wrong, I have no idea upon what documentary source(s) Lorrant/Goyat based their information, so I cannot comment further.

Hi Franck,

I can well understand the confusion considering that this is an 'international' board :)

Cheers

Rod

Re: 4./NJG11 Bf109 WN '1666333', lost 3-4 April 1945
 

One thing against the 411493 with NJG11, that is quite a pretty old aircraft for an unit using state of the art technics

Remi

Re: 4./NJG11 Bf109 WN '1666333', lost 3-4 April 1945
 

Hi Remi,

it isn't the only 'old' G6 WN quoted as being on strength at that time (5 April 1945). Among the others were 412914, 4129xx, and, of course, 412910 is mentioned in Genst.Gen.Qu.6.Abt. 210/45.

Other 1945 returns in the T. series of ULTRA decrypts would probably indicate similar WN (see CX/MSS/T458/18 and CX/MSS/T516/79; I don't have the HW 5 versions of these decrypts, which are the ones that provide WN).

Cheers

Rod

Re: 4./NJG11 Bf109 WN '1666333', lost 3-4 April 1945
 

Shame on me, next time i WILL CHECK,
T516/79 gives, 491162+782384+166333+ possibly 411493

Rémi

Re: 4./NJG11 Bf109 WN '1666333', lost 3-4 April 1945
 

Check is a must , even if it is time consuming, for the Pasewalk loss , I noted 441493..

Rémi

Re: 4./NJG11 Bf109 WN '1666333', lost 3-4 April 1945
 

Hi Rémi,

thanks for the clarifications :)

Rod

Re: 4./NJG11 Bf109 WN '1666333', lost 3-4 April 1945
 

Yes, thank you Remi!

Re: 4./NJG11 Bf109 WN '1666333', lost 3-4 April 1945
 

Hi Rémi, I've gone through the CX/MSS/R reports for the late April and May 1945 period but there is no information on this loss (Schulze). In general, very late war ULTRA of Nachtjagd operational info is sparse, probably on account of units sending less Enigma traffic via wireless and units not flying. For example, NJG4 traffic, once so volumous, all but dried up with the late-war move into northern Germany.

Cheers

Rod

Re: 4./NJG11 Bf109 WN '1666333', lost 3-4 April 1945
 

Hi
Thanks didn't know about this site, with the kracker list.
http://www.aircrewremembrancesociety...xisPilots.html
cheers
Jerry