A new picture of Bf 109 G-10 "Yellow 66" at Köthen
 

Hello Gang,

I just found a new picture of Bf 109 G-10 "Yellow 66", found at Köthen in May 1945:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/jharvey...75177/sizes/o/

According to the poster over at Flickr, the W.Nr. reads on the original 770355, which identifies this machine as an G-10/R2 produced by the delocalized WNF Diana Facility at Tisnov.

This plane, from which the first published picture can be found in in Tom Hitchcok's "109 Gallery", was already discussed back in 2007 thanks to this excellent picture found at this link:

http://www.soldiersmuseum.com/pages/...armored-57.htm

Anybody has an info as to which unit this machine belonged?

Cheers
Marc

Re: A new picture of Bf 109 G-10 "Yellow 66" at Köthen
 

Hello Marc,

I have seen a photo of a Bf 109 from the same unit alongside Bf 109 Werknr. 490137 which landed at Rinkaby, Sweden in April 1945.

Two other Bf 109 G-10/R2 (770293 and 770261) landed at Rinkaby on 12 April, so the one next to 490137 could likely be one of them. The pilots of both these planes had belonged to 2.(F)/122, which is strange because this unit was equipped with Me 410 and was spread between northern Italy and southern Bavaria at that time.

Both of these Rinkaby-109s are listed as being flown to Sweden from Neubrandenburg airfield. On 12 April 1945 this base was occupied by Stab and 1./NAGR 3, so maybe one of these is the parent unit of our particularly marked Bf 109 G-10 recons. But keep in mind that this is only a very loose assumption, as other recon units where in the Neubrandenburg area at this time too, for example 1. and 5./122. Maybe the pilots from Rinkaby had just switched Staffeln within their Gruppe?

Kind regards,
Christian

Re: A new picture of Bf 109 G-10 "Yellow 66" at Köthen
 

Great photo Marc,

Can you actually read the Werknummer on its fin and rudder? I show WNF-built Bf 109 G-10/R2 “+66 White,” found at Köthen, as being WNr. 770157 and not 770037. As it is, it is the lowest 770XXX WNr. in my database, and I list none at all with 7700XX WNrn.

Steve Sheflin

Re: A new picture of Bf 109 G-10 "Yellow 66" at Köthen
 

Christian, Steve,

Thanks for your inputs! Christian, a (F) 122 machine would be just fine, explaining the odd position and high number of this machine...

Steve,

I just tried to read it myself; it's a tough exercise as the pic is reversed. After trying, I would concur that the first two digits are 77 and the last three are 355. This overlaps well with the reading provided on a comment posted by the original poster over at Flickr whiere he claims to read with a magnification glass, and not without doubts, the W.Nr. 770355.

Cheers
Marc

Re: A new picture of Bf 109 G-10 "Yellow 66" at Köthen
 

HI Guys...

ummmmmmmm...I have an issue...

The cam scheme on that aircraft is not DIANA from what I can tell. And...as far as I know, WNF produced EXCLUSIVELY the G-10/U4...and NOT any R2...??

Werk number blocks for DIANA were the 612700 to the 613200 blocks...

Am I missing something here? Can someone explain where they are getting the production info from?

Also, the second photo CLEARLY shows an Me109K-4 Baggage compartment (this style was not used on any Me109G, including the latest models of the G-10)...so that would make it a K with secondary gear doors removed...can anyone else confirm??


Hhhhhhhmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm...

Mike

Re: A new picture of Bf 109 G-10 "Yellow 66" at Köthen
 

IMHO, I would be a little less categoric and attempt a bit of "reverse engineering"...

77x xxx batches weren't produced neither by Erla (we have very experienced researches - Charles Bavaroise and Jörg Meincke among them - who have found original Erla documents documenting production and deliveries of all the G-10s produced by that factory) nor by MTT (the excellent work of Peter Schmoll documents the whole Bf 109 production of that factory), so what is left? WNF of course.

Further, the fact that camouflage does not resemble that of Diana examples means only that they weren't produced there, but Diana was only a separate production center, this does not exclude at all the G-10/R2 production at Wiener Neustadt.

Last but not least, there are many photographs available of abandoned/wrecked G-10s without the plate/battery cover on the rear cockpit angled "wall", resulting in a trapezoidal hole not necessarily linked to a K-4.

Hope it helps.

Re: A new picture of Bf 109 G-10 "Yellow 66" at Köthen
 

Ah Mike,

You got my heart racing with this K-4 like missing battery cover.... And you're correct about Diana W.Nr. blocks...

Ferdinando,

thanks for your much appraised input; everything seems settled so far; thus it is a WNF machine, but did WNF upkeep a production line at Wiener Neustadt itself? Or were there other delocalized production lines?
Last but not least; no further ideas as to which unit this machine could belong? IS ROA out of question?

Cheers and thanks
Marc

Re: A new picture of Bf 109 G-10 "Yellow 66" at Köthen
 

Hi Fernando and Marc,

The K baggage compartment (hole and hatch), were made in completely difefrent shape than the G. To be honest out of all the photos I have seen, I have never seen a G verson with a K-style baggage compartment.

I do not mean sinply the lack of battery box, but the actual shape and side angles of the hatch and compartment itself. Please share photos of these G-models, as this is something I have never heard of or seen before....interesting... ;)

So...to confrim, not a DIANA bird, but rather WNF itself in Austria...correct?

Mike

Re: A new picture of Bf 109 G-10 "Yellow 66" at Köthen
 

Here's the quoted photo and a detail of a G-10's baggage hole.

http://win.150gct.it/public/veltro/109baggage.jpg

At a second, more accurate glance, I do admit there are differences in shape (at least the former is wider and lacks the angled corners on top), differences confirmed by looking at other wrecked K-4, so I agree. ;)

Yes, it has to be. After all, it is a further proof that a complete an thorough study about the late G-series is still to come...

Re: A new picture of Bf 109 G-10 "Yellow 66" at Köthen
 

HI Fernando!!

Sooooooooo...is it possible the 109 in the first photo, is in-fact a K-4, with secondary gear doors removed? Unfortunately, I have not seen the other photos of that aircraft (such as werk number on tail and such)...but for sure that hole is of the K-type...

;)

Mike

Re: A new picture of Bf 109 G-10 "Yellow 66" at Köthen
 

This image shows that the inspection hatch on the fuselage is located as with the Bf109G series and we can hence drop the K-4 theory.
http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c3...w190S_CR-P.jpg
Br
Goran
(image is from an expired eBay auction, cropped and enlarged)

Re: A new picture of Bf 109 G-10 "Yellow 66" at Köthen
 

Hi,

You are confusing Baggage Compartment with Radio Hatch. The baggage compartment is the hatch behind the pilot's head in the cockpit. The radio hatch is one of the fuselage with the first aid kit.

I am referring to the aircraft in the second photo, which does not prove in any way that it is the same aircraft in the first photo (Yellow 66).

As it has a K-4 baggage compartment and NOT G-type, it "appears" to be a K-4 with the secondary gear door covers removed...and not "Yellow 66".

If no evidence exists confirming the 2nd pic (front cockpit shot) IS 100% Yellow 66, then I would suspect it is not - unless one can find a pic that shows both the "66" and this K-4 style baggage compartment (like a 3/4 view from the front), of course...

To date, I have never seen a photo of an Me109 with the K-4 style baggage compartment...or a K-4 with a G style compartment...


Mike

Re: A new picture of Bf 109 G-10 "Yellow 66" at Köthen
 

Dear Mike,
I don't believe I'm confusing the 'Baggage Compartment' with the 'Radio Hatch' as I'm only commenting on the position of the latter as seen on the image of what has to be "Yellow 66", which I've posted above. This makes it a Bf109G with quite some certainty in my opinion.
Br
Goran

Re: A new picture of Bf 109 G-10 "Yellow 66" at Köthen
 

Hi Goran,

I am not questioning "Yellow 66", which is obviously a G-10 based on the first photo.

I am questioing the unknown aircraft in the second photo, that "appears" to be K-4...not a G, due to the baggae compartmenr.

No comment was made on Yellow 66 being a K-4...


;)

Mike

Re: A new picture of Bf 109 G-10 "Yellow 66" at Köthen
 

Ok Mike. I understand :)
Cheers
Goran

Re: A new picture of Bf 109 G-10 "Yellow 66" at Köthen
 

What about that picture found here: http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showth...auen#post88510
And another forum:
http://www.luftwaffe-experten.org/fo...=1&#entry45297


The "bagage compartment" is not that square....
What about red legs?
What about tires dimensions?
What about tail wheel?
What about the ground sewage which is visible on the three pictures?
What about the canopy we can see on three different places...
How many planes have been found in Köthen? How many Bf109? Following O-Nine caption: two. They are on the picture send by Goran.
What about the dirt mount around the left wheel? it's on three pictures.

Unless the plane's picture shown in front view is not taken in Köthen and until further evidence this last plane is Yellow 66. For me of course! Well, you know me.. :D.

Regards, Franck.

Re: A new picture of Bf 109 G-10 "Yellow 66" at Köthen
 

Cleaned up a bit. Is that a work number on the rudder/ If so, it could be 718xxx.

But, is that a small number above and to the left north-west) of the swastika?

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e4...d/4f73dfef.jpg

Re: A new picture of Bf 109 G-10 "Yellow 66" at Köthen
 

The cockpit baggage compartment of the K-4 is much more "square" (it is still trapezoidal, of course...) than the one of the G-10...

Look here to see a couple of K-4 examples and compare them with the example of a G-10 supplied in the previous page...

http://win.150gct.it/public/veltro/CockpitK4a.jpg

http://win.150gct.it/public/veltro/CockpitK4b.jpg

Thus, the plane visible in the album of the 3rd Armored Division should not be a G, at least as far as that detail is concerned. But all other deductions of Franck can be certainly shared.

So we have a G-10/R2 with a baggage compartment hatch looking like the one of a K-4... on the other hand the location of the plane seems to be the same in both photographs.

It certainly is a a fascinating mistery, but in the end that frontal photo seems to be the third one of "white 66"....

Re: A new picture of Bf 109 G-10 "Yellow 66" at Köthen
 

Hello Fernandino,

I hope you, and others, understood what I was trying to show with the links I did put in my former post.
The picture I was talking about, taken in Plauen, is supposed to show K-4; if it is then the "Bagage compartment" is not that square.
In the same book, O'Nine Gallery by Hitchcock, P. 50, there is another picture of what is said to be a K-2 (Well it's an old book!) "Luisl" shot down 24.12.44 over Eupen where the "bagage compartment" is not that square. But perhaps it's not a Bf109K...

Still in the same book, P.51, there are three pictures of a 9./JG 77 Weisse 3, a Bf109K-4, whose picture can be found in Poruba & Janda, 1997, too, whose "Bagage compartment" entrance is not that square too... You can see it here http://www.me109.info/display.php?a=e&fid=867

So! Seems to me that not all the Bf109K-4 got that particularity and, by the contrary, it's not because we've never seen it on Bf109G(-10)s that it didn't exist. Or, once again, the three said examples aren't Bf109K-4 at all (Sorry Mr. Poruba)...

And yes Fernandino, as you do, I prefer a "White 66" than a Yellow one.

Of course, taking account of all details I pointed in my previous post, one may understand why I continue to think that the "frontal" one is the third picture of "Weisse 66".

Cheers All, Franck.

Re: A new picture of Bf 109 G-10 "Yellow 66" at Köthen
 

Franck, Ferdinando here (not Fernandino, unless you want to be called "little Franck"...). In fact, "Luisl" is a G-10 built by Erla (the square panel on port side speaks volumes), so it is not a proof.

Seen, and I dare anyone to see anything definitive in that fuzzy image... at least not me, unless I want to see something not visible...

http://win.150gct.it/public/veltro/K4baggage.jpg

I am not able to see anything clear enough to be taken as a proof in there, but would love to.

This is to say that, while I do respect and agree with the other points you brought to light to sustain that the Kothen frontal photo do show "white 66", I cannot honestly accepts the proofs you brought (in the end, only one single aircraft at the very, very best) about the presence of "G" baggage openings in K-4s.

To me it is simply a matter of clear evidences, not of presumed ones.

Re: A new picture of Bf 109 G-10 "Yellow 66" at Köthen
 

Sorry Ferdinando,

I hope you didn't take it for a personnal offence. I apologise.

Roughly I agree with your comments concerning white 3, it's not obvious.. I didn't know "Luisl" picture until today.. I don't know the detail (square panel) you are talking about.
I have no more comments except to say forgive me again.. I use to be called Little Franck since long, Franky sometimes too... even Calimero!!!!

Best regards, Franck.

Re: A new picture of Bf 109 G-10 "Yellow 66" at Köthen
 

Franck,

no personal issue here, only a precisation since to see one's own name used as a diminutive can be annoying. Things settled.

Concerning the rest, when you say...

...I am a bit surprised you don't know the main differences of the Bf 109 G-10s produced by Erla (namely the lack of "chin bulges" due to the nose redesign and the port "quarter moon" fairing replaced by a rectangular plate).

The photo of "Luisl" was showing the latter detail to advantage, so its identification was quite easy.

Hope this helps.

Re: A new picture of Bf 109 G-10 "Yellow 66" at Köthen
 

Hi Ferdinando,

Sorry, I'm late to say thank you; I had a good reason: My Hard drive was damaged and I had to put a new one - bigger of course - I'm afraid I did lost my Bf109 Excell files which were on Desktop!... One year work!..
Whatever I got my computer back this afternoon.
Yes I know that "Quarter moon" replaced by a rectangular plate but I'm not that expert and sometimes I need more explanations than expected.

Thank you very much for your answers.

Franck.