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Amiot 143M in Croatian Air force
Hi Everyone!
The Croatian Air Force used various foreign aircraft such as one Amiot143M all along the WW2. Apparently the sole french bomber Amiot143M was introduced in 1941. MSN of the aircraft is unknown and I don't known if picture is currently available or related utilization during the war. Does anyone know information on this bomber? Thank you in anticipation Best regards Jerome |
Re: Amiot 143M in Croatian Air force
several books on Axis AF state that Croatian AF had this bomber, but that is all! No picture had been seen so far, if there is one!
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Re: Amiot 143M in Croatian Air force
Hi Mig Man,
You are right. I don't know whether or not it is a legend or myth about this Amiot143. After 3 years to crawled the web, discussed in several aero forum and dug in the french archives, nothing is perspiring... nor croatian report, nor french clues, neither photo! After discussion with people on this forum, it is clear the question is still open. Even a dedicated trip to Croatia, Bosnia or Serbia ....that it to say ex Yugoslavia country will not be so easy to find info due to the fact that archives have been scattered and not easily to access (see various discussion). Maybe someone could provide another path to find info about this bomber.... or can access to the Croatian/Bosnian/Serbian archives! I keep an eye open! Best Regards Jerome |
Re: Amiot 143M in Croatian Air force
Hello Jerome,
It aint a myth nor a legend. This plane existed, as do Yugoslav and Croat documents about it. As for the photo - that one we'll have to wait. The plane was flown by Czech crew to Zagreb in 1940. It was then taken to Kraljevo. I saw a document about official commision being sent from Belgrade to Kraljevo to examine Bronzavia radio set on the "X Plane". While the RYAF was deciding if to refurbish it for para-duties or to scrap it (it was in awfull state) Yugoslavia was overrun. Germans sold it to Croatia, where it had a serial 1701 and short and uneventfull career, being damaged at the end of 1941 when one of its landing legs collapsed. It eventually ended as an decoy, if I remember correctly, at Rajlovac, where allied fighters "practiced" live firing on it on many occassions in summer 1944. In contrast to that, some recent stories and "findings" that it was actually an Amiot 351 or 354 are myth and legend. Forget the Archives in Serbia, more or less they are mess and would take you too much time. But if you're looking for good social life then do not hesitate and pack your things! Cheers, Boris |
Re: Amiot 143M in Croatian Air force
Hello Boris,
It's good to get some news from you since last discussion on this bomber! For sure, I am exiting to see a picture of this Amiot 143M with Yugoslav first and Croatian then. I am patient... To date, nobody see such pictures and no testimony or report from pilotes were gathered at least thru various discussion on forums. Rest the archives to obtain evidences! Please coud you please clarify "do Yugoslav and Croat documents about it". it seems that you had the opportunity to access to precious documents tied to this bomber. I am very interested to see them. if any, could you please contact me directly on my e_mail. I am very interested to stride over the croatian, serbian or czech countries to obtain these documents, package would be ready in 5 min! thanking you in anticipation best regards Jerome |
Re: Amiot 143M in Yugoslavia/Croatia
A friend of mine wrote that this Amiot 143 (Gnome et Rhone 14K engines, called aircraft "X" in RYAF documents) was flown to Yugoslavia by a Czech crew serving with the Armee de l'Air after occupation Czechoslovakia in 1939. They flew from France on 18 June 1940 and landed in Zagreb and two days later went on to Belgrade. The crew then left for North Africa and the Amiot was flown to Kraljevo.
Some modifications were carried out, such as replacement of the bomb racks in the bomb bay, radio equipment and machine guns (adaptation to Yugoslav equipment?). At the end of March 1941 the aircraft was still in French markings and it was captured by the Germans in April 1941. It passed to the Croatian Air Force in September 1941 and flew occasionally in 1942. Low serviceability and sabotage by ground crew hampered its use. Finally, in the spring/summer of 1944 it was used at Rajlovac (Sarajevo) as a decoy for allied aircraft. A very interesting aircraft, indeed! Lennart Andersson |
Re: Amiot 143M in Croatian Air force
Hello Lennart
Thank you to enlighten me about this Amiot143M saga. It is coherent with the comments of Boris. To pursuie this investigation, I have to perform scrutiny into the French Archives dubbed "SHD/A" near Paris to determine the MSN of the A/C. The starting points will be the date of the mission ie 18 June'40, the Czech crew & bomber mission to the East in the current Bomber Squadron at this time (Groupement n°10, GBI/34 & II/34, GBI/38 & GBII/38). If you have additional details or evidences,please let me know I will keep you inform Cheers Jerome |
Re: Amiot 143M in Croatian Air force
Hello Jerome,
The flight was not scheduled as a regular combat mission. This particular aircraft was used by Czech personell of GB I/21 for evacuation from Agen airbase near Bordeaux only. The aircraft was offered personally by Gen. Joseph Vuillemin, who was present at the airfield in that time. The crew intended to fly to England but due to flak damage from previous service and some controls malfunction crew changed the flight direction to Yugoslavia. The crew (Sgt. Otakar Zanta, Sgt. Jan Irving, Sgt. Alois Keda, Sgt. Ladislav Malovec) were interned till December 1940 than escaped and via Greece evacuated to Turkey and later to England where they have joined RAF. Since they were missing for six months the whole crew was awarded Czech Medal for Bravery in memoriam in October 1940 by Czech authorities. P/O Otakar Zanta (169918) was captain of 311 Sqn Liberator GR MkVI, BZ995/G, "J" when reported missing from antisubmarine patrol on March 13, 1944. Previously he was credited with sinking of U966 on November 10, 1943. Sgt Alois Keda (788087) was killed on April 6, 1942, in accident of Wellington Ic, P9299, KX-A of 1429. COTF which crashed during cross coutry training flight probably due to engine malfunction. J. Irving and L. Malovec survived the war. Regards David |
Re: Amiot 143M in Croatian Air force
Good Afternoon David,
It is very interesting your information about this bomber. This will allow to determine the MSN of this aircraft among the 123 Amiot143M used by the 4 Bomber Squadrons ie G.B.I/34, II/34, I/38 & II/38 during the "Battle of France" starting from the 10 May'40.After checking documents & various magazines, there is no pertinent information about A/C used from the Agen airfied, especially around the 18 June'40. At this time, confusing retreat was done by all the Figther & Bomber Squadrons. Investigation on French Archive at the "SHD" will tell us. i intend to do that during my next vacation. Please note that the Squadron Bomber G.B.I/21 used the Bloch MB210 (9) & some new Amiot354 (5). I guess that this is mentioned crew flew the Amiot143M to Zagreb on 18 June'40 and not an Amiot354 as discussed ealier in this forum. It is an another mystery subject to clear later! Do you know whether or not Jan Irving and Ladislav Malovec are still alive nowodays? Best Regards Jerome |
Re: Amiot 143M in Croatian Air force
Hello Jerome,
L. Malovec passed away on March 17, 1986 and J.R. Irving passed on April 24, 1997. I can not confirm the type of aircraft flown but Czech sources repeatedly claim that they were flying MODERN bomber (Amiot 351/354?). For your information there was second Czech crew flying Marcel Bloch BM210 from Agen the very same day to England. The crew K. Schor, F. Petr, B. Baumruk and F. Kracmer, all pilots from GB II/21 crashlanded near Darthmouth. All were later flying with RAF, with B. Baumruk and F. Kracmer being killed flying Wellington bombers on operations. F. Petr survived the war as POW and K. Schor survived two tours of operations. F. Petr died in 2002, K. Schor in 1986. Regards David |
Re: Amiot 143M in Croatian Air force
Jerome,
there are some new foundings about this topic in Croatia. Czech crew who claim they flew a modern bomber, as David said are right. After all they knew what they flew and there are also many eyewitnesses in Croatia to confirm this fact. But let's go in time order. The unit from which Czech crew defected was equipped with Amiot 351 and 354 bombers, some of them camouflaged and some left in bare metal. This type of aircraft had sufficient range to be able to reach Zagreb airport where it landed, while Amiot 143 could not do that - this is the 1st proof. When the aircraft reached Zagreb, a young pilot was in the air making his training flight in Rogozarski PVT. This man was future post-war Yugoslav Air Force general Rendulic. In his memoires he recalls that a beautiful all-silver twin-engined aircraft popped out of the cloud and almost collided with him. I spoke with Mr.Rendulic at his home several years ago and showed him some photos. Without any doubt he pointed at Amiot 351 as the aircraft he saw. - that is the 2nd proof. Statements of the Czech crew - 3rd proof In one of the stories long ago, there was a small note that citizens and passengers present on that day on the Borongaj airfield in Zagreb witnessed landing of modern sleek and beautiful shiny all-silver French bomber on the airfield. - 4th proof Croatian Air Force pilot Ivan Matiegka who crashed in Caproni Ca.310 during one of his flights remembers "a beautiful French plane which was kept at the end of Rajlovac airbase and which wasn't flown by anybody" during his career at Rajlovac. Amiot 351 is certainly beautiful, while 143 is certainly not. -5th proof You will notice that several reports refer to this airplane as beautiful and that is a very strong hint towards the type. Also in 1940 all silver 351/354 were not uncommon, while the bare metal 143 would be a rarity, especially from operational unit. Now unfortunately there are still no photos but based on these facts we have at least some progress in this topic. Best regards, Marko |
Re: Amiot 143M in Croatian Air force
Hi Marko,
Great information on the Croatian Amiot. Here are some extracts from the excellent work cited below, which was written exclusively from wartime Croatian AF documents in Arhiv Hrvatska on the Sava cesta in Zagreb. Frka’s book has hundreds of photos of Croatian AF aircraft but not one of the Amiot. This a/c was delivered from Kraljevo to Rajlovac between August and November 1941. p.35 shows 8th Sqdn./3d Bomber Group (8. Jato/3. Skupina) with CA. 310s, Bristol Blenheim Is and a single Amiot 143M) at Sarajevo-Rajlovac throughout 1942. The commander of 8th Sqdn. during all of 1942 was Satnik (Capt.) Ibrahim Sijerčić. p.297 states that it was an Amiot 143M, Croatian series number 1701 (1 = Bomber, 7 = Amiot, 01 = number in the series and shows that there was only one of these in possession of the CAF). This number was painted in large black letters on the side of the fuselage between the cockpit and the tail (p.51). So we have a conflict here between your information and that from original Croatian AF documents. Source: Frka, Danijel, Josip Novak and Siniša Pogačić. La Force Aérienne Croate 1941 – 1945. Collection Histoire de L’Aviation Nº 10. Outreau (France): Editions Lela Presse, 2000. ISBN: 953-97564-0-4. Oversize Hb (heavy card cover). 303p. Profusely illus. Maps. Dwgs. Color profiles. Bibliography. Appendices. You referred to Rendulić as the “future post-war Yugoslav Air Force general Rendulić” so I suspect he may be the second fellow shown below? Do you happen to recall his first name? The chief of the wartime Croatian Air Force in Zagreb was Pukovnik Adalbert Rogulja who was sentenced to 10 years following trial in Zagreb and subsequently died in Stara Gradiška Prison. RENDULIĆ, ? . 01.11.42 Gend. Podpukovnik, appointed director of instruction at the Central Gendarmerie School in Bjelovar. RENDULIĆ, ? . 03.09.44 AF Zastavnik, said to have attended the Borovo Flying School from 01.44 to 07.44 and then assigned to the 2d Air Group at Sarajevo Rajlovac. L. |
Re: Amiot 143M in Croatian Air force
Hi Larry,
information are not in conflict but rather new findings vs. old ones. In Kingdom of Yugoslavia this Amiot was referred to as "Airplane X" in all documents to hide its existance. In later Croatian documents it was referred simply as "Amiot" so documents do not reveal its identity. How did it come to the situation that historians thought it was Amiot 143 is beyond my knowledge. What happened later is usual situation when every new author simply copies some information from his forerunners and after several rounds of copying it becomes "the fact". That is how we were all led to thinking this was Amiot 143. I repeat, no official document from that time mentions designation "143" for this airplane, although it doesn't mention "351" either. The eyewitness I quoted is Zlatko Rendulic who joined partisans in summer 1943 and attended further flying courses in Soviet Union during the war. In post war period he was one of the most important experts for aviation in Yugoslavia and was resposible for selection of aircraft types for purchase as well as very successfull indigenous designs like Galeb and Jastreb. |
Re: Amiot 143M in Croatian Air force
Hi Marko,
Many thanks for your most interesting and edifying reply. You are entirely correct about how a historical error gets published once, twice and then set in concrete as fact the third and subsequent times it's published. World War II history is riddled with examples of this. Incidentally, the Amiot seems to have "disappeared" during the first half of 1943 when it no longer appears in any of the Croatian aircraft listings. Frka makes no mention of it after 31 Dec 42, nor does General-potpukovnik avijacije Vojislav Mikić is his multi-part series on the 1941-45 air war over the NDH and BiH published in Vojnoistorijski Glasnik 1986-88. So I am guessing it was struck from the inventory of active aircraft? Shoved into a hangar and forgotten? Scrapped? Any idea what happened to it? L. |
Re: Amiot 143M in Croatian Air force
According to one source it was expended as a decoy on airfield for Allied bombers.
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Re: Amiot 143M in Croatian Air force
Thanks, makes sense. Balkan Air Force and others began flying a lot of strafing runs on Rajlovac in 1944, so the Amiot would have made a juicy decoy target.
L. |
Re: Amiot 143M in Croatian Air force
Hi Marko & Larry,
Thanking you for additional information and comments re this unknown Amiot. From my side I just (re)starting the Amiot 351/354 list to track ea. A/C with activity and fate to determine potential candidate to Rajlovac. For the moment no convincing evidence. In the meantime I am crossing my finger to find someday on the well-known auction site german or allies photos on this Amiot Best Regards Jérôme |
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