Jagdwaffe's Opponents in the Polish Campaign
 

Hi guys,

Seeking contact from any experts on the Polish campaign to answer the following queries I have:

1) Lt. Gerhard Boehmel of 2/ZG 76 claimed a PZL P.24 (likely actually a P.11) on September 2nd, 1939. I believe this was an aircraft of 161 EM, can anyone add any further details?

2) The following day, Uffz. Rudolf Kobert of I/LG 1 claimed a a PZL P.24 (likely actually a P.11 as well). Has his opponent been traced?

3) Are there any known details of the crew of the 22 EB P.23 Karas that Karl-Gottfried Nordmann claimed as a "P.43" on the 3rd of September? All I know is that the aircraft overturned during the subsequent forced landing.

4) I know that 212 EB suffered four losses in combat with I/ZG 52 on September 4th. Are details of the crews known?

Many thanks in advance.

Nick

Re: Jagdwaffe's Opponents in the Polish Campaign
 

161st Eskadra lost two pilots:
ppor. Edward Kramarski, killed
ppor. Piotr Ruszel, killed
ppor. Jan Dzwonek, wounded
pchor. Wieslaw Choms, safe





a. 211 EB, PZL.37A bis Los no. 72.18, crew: por.obs. Boleslaw Gorniak (killed), kpr. A/G W/Op Jozef Puchala (killed);
b. 212 EB, PZL.37B Los, no.72.91, crew: por.obs. Mieczyslaw Bykowski (killed), kpr. A/G W/Op Lucjan Zimmerman (killed), krp. A/G W/Op Marian Gargol (killed), kpr. pil. Kazimierz Kaczmarek (safe);
c.212 EB, PZL.37 A bis Los no. 72-43, crew: por.obs. Witold Zukowski (killed), sierz.pil. Jozef Siwik (killed), kpr. A/G W/Op Wladyslaw D.Kramarczyk (killed), st.szer. A/G W/Op Aleksander Stepniowski (killed);
d.212 EB, PZL.37B Los no.72-111, crew: kpr. A/G W/Op Wladyslaw Wojdat, por. obs. Jan K. Lekszycki (killed), ppor. pil. Michal Ostrowski (wounded).
e. 212 EB, PZL.37 Los, no.72-16, crew: ppor.obs.Dzik (wounded),pchor.pil.Mazak (wounded), kpr. A/G Danielak (safe), kpr. A/G Golebiowski (safe).

Re: Jagdwaffe's Opponents in the Polish Campaign
 

Hi Peter S,

Many thanks for your quick and comprehensive reply. Please allow me to clarify: there were five losses, therefore, and not only four as I had originally believed?

Nick

Re: Jagdwaffe's Opponents in the Polish Campaign
 

Nick

212 EB claimed four.

Re: Jagdwaffe's Opponents in the Polish Campaign
 

How silly of me: 212 EB suffered four losses and 211 EB suffered one loss.
Could 211 EB's loss be the one claimed by Lt. Helmut Fahlbusch of 2/ZG 76?

Re: Jagdwaffe's Opponents in the Polish Campaign
 

As far as I know 211 EB's Los was shot down by ZG 2

Re: Jagdwaffe's Opponents in the Polish Campaign
 

Nick, I would say plut. Marian Domagala (safe)

Re: Jagdwaffe's Opponents in the Polish Campaign
 

plut. pilot Czeslaw Hlawiczka (safe)
kpr. A/G Andrzej Ustupski (killed), he claimed E/A before he died
ppor. obs. Tadeusz Kalinowski (DoW on 18th Sept)

Re: Jagdwaffe's Opponents in the Polish Campaign
 

On September 5th, Hannes Trautloft claimed a "PZL P.43" that has been matched to the loss of a P.23B of 32 ER, whose crew were all KIA.
Are you able to help me with that one?

Re: Jagdwaffe's Opponents in the Polish Campaign
 

You will find a lot of information in my 3 books "Luftwaffe nad Polska 1939" (Armagedon) published in Poland so far.

Re: Jagdwaffe's Opponents in the Polish Campaign
 

Nick,
PZL-23B Karas no. 44.55, shot down over Wylazlow, near Turek
Crew: ppor. pil. Adam Kandziora (killed), plut.pil. Czeslaw Kruszewski (killed), kpr. A/G Kazimierz Tyrakowski (tried to bale out, killed)

P.S. Mr Emmerling, I'm not so sure that Nick can read in Polish :) Even so, i wouldn't recommend your books as the best source of knowledge about Polish losses.

Re: Jagdwaffe's Opponents in the Polish Campaign
 

Well Mister Peter S, you must not understand in Polish but you can find the opponents Luftwaffe versus Polish AF there and make your own conclusions. I mean there is no other source giving you the information in this "bright way".
Additionally I would recommend some books with detailed Polish personnel losses, but the language is Polish... :)

Re: Jagdwaffe's Opponents in the Polish Campaign
 

OK, guys, play nice. No personal comments.

Re: Jagdwaffe's Opponents in the Polish Campaign
 

Gentlemen,

I am most grateful for ALL help rendered regardless of whom it is coming from. To that end, many thanks to Peter S (please refer to the personal message I just sent you. As stated, I will email you in the coming days to share some info with you).

Marius, any chance your work might be published in English anytime soon, I am sure that they would be of interest to me, no matter what. (It is correct that I can speak English and German but not Polish)

I share John Beaman's sentiments: Let's play nicely because like I said above, ANY help is good help and disagreement is no good cause for disrespect.

Re: Jagdwaffe's Opponents in the Polish Campaign
 

I looked at the comments in post#11 and since no one has had any answers before on Polish AF losses there most be newly "dug up" material. So did Hannes Trauloft actually shoot down PZL-23B Karas #44.55 (is this the plane serial number?) piloted by Adam Kandziora [KIA] (What was his rank?) on 05Sep39 over Wylazlow? I don't read Polish but would like the source.

Re: Jagdwaffe's Opponents in the Polish Campaign
 

In my opinion it should be ppor. obs. Adam Kandziora (ppor. - it has the same meaning as German Leutnant; obs. - it means that he was an observer/navigator).

44.55 is in fact a serial number. This PZL was delivered to 32. ER in August 1935.

Re: Jagdwaffe's Opponents in the Polish Campaign
 

One of my sources states erroneously that he was a pilot. Despite that Kandziora graduated from Deblin AF College as an obserwator –observer, he also had basic flying experience. He flew gliders previously, and what is also very interesting, the day before he died, he actually took controls of Karas, when its pilot por. pil. T.Szymonski was wounded.
32 ER lost three Karas’ on that day: No.44.109 (two airmen killed, one DoW), No. 44.122 (two airmen killed, one slightly wounded) and mentioned before No. 44.55 (all three killed).
Polish podporucznik was an equivalent of Pilot Officer or sub-lieutenant.

Re: Jagdwaffe's Opponents in the Polish Campaign
 

Thank you both for the answers. So was Kruszewski the actual pilot? Still is this the one shot down by Trauloft? The source for this work?

Re: Jagdwaffe's Opponents in the Polish Campaign
 

Kruszewski was a pilot, Kandziora was an observer and commander (in the Polish Air Force it was a rule that an observer was also a commander).

Re: Jagdwaffe's Opponents in the Polish Campaign
 

I wouldn’t describe it as a ‘’rule”. It is known that Polish pilots were mostly NCOs, so it was obvious that observer (an officer), with longer training and higher education was commanding the crew. But we also know that on several occasions it was a pilot who commanded the crew, when pilot was in rank of kapitan and observer was porucznik for instance.
A good example could be the crew of Karas from 31 ER, with kpt. pil. Nikonow (Eskadra’s commander), ppor. obs. Szczepanski and kpr. A/G Zemler.

Re: Jagdwaffe's Opponents in the Polish Campaign
 

Re: Jagdwaffe's Opponents in the Polish Campaign
 

Stettin?
Am I missing something?
Warschau, Krakau, Bromberg... perhaps?!