photographs of crashed Do17 U5+DA on ebay.
 

Hello,

found this auction on ebay: http://www.ebay.de/itm/Orig-Foto-not...item20bfab4dbd

Stab/KG2 U5+DA with visible W.Nr. crashed May 1940 in Saargebiet(?).
Further info would be appreciated.

rgds,
Bf 110

Re: photographs of crashed Do17 U5+DA on ebay.
 

Hi Bf110, really disappointing response from this thread, i thought these quality photos would have brought more interest!
As a side note, i cant find any recorded loss for this in KG2's losses for May 1940.

Perhaps Larry Hickey and the EOE team could possibly narrow this one down?

Best regs,
Steve.

Re: photographs of crashed Do17 U5+DA on ebay.
 

One of these (maybe the first one) could be possible:
1940-05-09, Stabsst./KG 2, Do 17Z, Bei Homburg/Saar, Notlandung infolge Beschuß durch feindliche Jäger. Bruch 80 %.
1940-05-13, Stabsst./KG 2, Do 17Z, Südlich Sedan, Flakbeschuß. Bruch 10 %.
1940-05-16, Stabsst./KG 2, Do 17Z, Gelnhausen, Notlandung nach Luftkampf mit Jägern. Bruch 20 %.
1940-05-17, Stabsst./KG 2, Do 17U, Fl.Pl. Mainz-Finthen, Rollschaden. Bruch 30 %.
1940-05-18, Stabsst./KG 2, Do 17Z, Bei Rehlingen, Notlandung infolge Motorschaden. Bruch 40 %.
1940-05-27, Stabsst./KG 2, Do 17Z, Ostvleteren, 15 km südwestlich Dixmude, Notlandung nach Luftkampf. Bruch 100 %.
1940-05-29, Stabsst./KG 2, Do 17Z, Nördlich Breteuil sur Noye, Beschuß durch Jäger. Bruch 60 %.

Matti

Re: photographs of crashed Do17 U5+DA on ebay.
 

Matti,

i am very impressed of each of Your postings all the time. Looks like You are the keeper of the LW-losses-Grail.
Suspicingly: You are not online with GQM, or? :D

Greets
Norbert

Re: photographs of crashed Do17 U5+DA on ebay.
 

"1940-05-16, Stabsst./KG 2, Do 17Z, Gelnhausen, Notlandung nach Luftkampf mit Jägern. Bruch 20 %."

Matti,

just beeing as bold to ask: if that plane went home from a mission over France why the heck did it went as far as it did inspite that a lot of airfields had been more convenient - or in other words closer - to reach for a presumed merely safe landing?
Thanks in advance for any additional infos as for details of this kite and its crew.

y/f
Norbert

Re: photographs of crashed Do17 U5+DA on ebay.
 

Thanks Steve and Matti for your comments.
Following losses I would exclude:
1940-05-09, Stabsst./KG 2, Do 17Z, Bei Homburg/Saar, Notlandung infolge Beschuß durch feindliche Jäger. Bruch 80 %. To me it doesn't look like 80 % damage.

1940-05-17, Stabsst./KG 2, Do 17U, Fl.Pl. Mainz-Finthen, Rollschaden. Bruch 30 %. It's apparently a Z version.

What's interesting to me, this a/c has no unit insignia. By the way could someone decipher the W.nr.? Looks like 235x (x = last digit unclear)

rgds,
Bf 110

Re: photographs of crashed Do17 U5+DA on ebay.
 

Hello,

To follow up on the 40-05-09 theory, we carry this in the EOE Luft loss/casualty DB as:

"May 9, 1940: Stabsstaffel KG2 Dornier Do17Z. Wrecked in crash-landing at Homburg-Saar (Germany). Crew unhurt. Aircraft 80% damaged - write-off."

I note that Homburg is in the Saarland of Germany and very close to the French border.

For the 40-05-17 incident:

"May 17, 1940: Stabsstaffel KG2 Dornier Do17Z. Damaged in taxying accident at Ober-Olm. No crew casualties. Aircraft 50% damaged but repairable."

Both Ober-Olm and Mainz-Finthen (see Bf110 entry above) Airfields are in the Rhineland-Palatinate District of Germany. I can't account for the difference in location, subtype and damage % between our listing and the one provided by Bf 110, but neither are in the Saar and are quite far from the French border. So it would appear that if the photo caption is correct, then the May 9th incident is far more likely. The plane was apparently more severely damaged than the limited photography suggests, but by the rippling in the fuselage skin in two of the photos, I suspect that the internal structure of this a/c may have been badly bent, and hence the fact that the a/c was considered a write off do to the failure of structural integrity.

I'd very much like to nail this one down, including the W.Nr. The bid price is pretty high already so it may be difficult to win this one on eBay, but if anyone would like to go in with me on it, I'd appreciate the offer to share it. I'm currently working a/c selections for 91 different color profiles for KG2 from the 1939-40 period, and, if we can nail down the W.Nr. and the correct swastica position, this could well be one of them.

One other comment, if my understanding of the KG2 fuselage nose-band color coding is accurate, the diagonal nose band IS the unit insignia and it, and the letter "D" should be medium blue (for Gesch. Stab). If someone knows different, I'd like to hear about it. There is a KG2 Stabstaffel insignia adopted prior to the Battle of Britain, but this plane does not carry that emblem. That issue has been addressed in another fairly recent post on this Board.

One other note, the steeple in the background could tell us a rather precise location for this incident, if anyone can ID this village church (in Homburg?).

Regards,

Re: photographs of crashed Do17 U5+DA on ebay.
 

Hi BF 110
The following link http://surfcity.kund.dalnet.se/commonwealth_vale.htm may be of help/interest
Towards the evening on 16 April six 80 Squadron Hurricanes were scrambled to intercept bombers (reported as Ju88s), which were attacking a munitions factory half a mile from Eleusis. Pilot Officer Vale and Pilot Officer J. Still each claimed one destroyed near the target, whilst Sergeant Edward Hewett chased another to the north and claimed this shot down as well.
The German bombers appear to have been Do17Zs of Stabstaffel/KG 2, which lost three such aircraft – reportedly in the Larissa area. These were U5+GA (Leutnant Ludwig Rohr), U5+BA (Leutnant Heinrich Hunger) and U5-DA (Hauptmann Konrad Ebsen); all the crews failed to return.

Please note when searching site that Aircraft is entered U5-DA & not U5+DA

Kind regards

Ross

Re: photographs of crashed Do17 U5+DA on ebay.
 

That was in 1941 in Greece, not in 1940 in Frankreich.

Matti

Re: photographs of crashed Do17 U5+DA on ebay.
 

Thanks Matti you beat me to it.

Norbert

Re: photographs of crashed Do17 U5+DA on ebay.
 

Thanks Larry for your statement. I was not aware that only nose band was the unit insignia. So thank you for the clarification.
I've looked on a map. If the caption is right, there are two crash sites in Saargebiet:

1940-05-09, Stabsst./KG 2, Do 17Z, Bei Homburg/Saar, Notlandung infolge Beschuß durch feindliche Jäger. Bruch 80 % (So my line of thought about the damage was totally wrong. :o)

and

1940-05-18, Stabsst./KG 2, Do 17Z, Bei Rehlingen, Notlandung infolge Motorschaden. Bruch 40 %.

I also searched for churches in the area. I found this in Rehlingen: http://www.gastgeber-eifel.de/bildan...0Siersburg.jpg It looks similar, but difficult to say if this is it.

Kind regards,
Bf 110

Re: photographs of crashed Do17 U5+DA on ebay.
 

Hi Larry,

The various bands seen on Luftwaffe bombers (He 111, Ju 88 and Do 17) in early 1940 were tactical markings used to identify the Gruppe to which they were assigned in their respective Geschwader, and not formal unit insignia / wappen per se:
· Diagonal encircling nose band ahead of the cockpit = KG 2
· Diagonal fuselage band behind the wing trailing edge = KG 54
· Vertical fuselage band behind the wing trailing edge = KG 76
These markings were of varying widths (20-30 cm) and coloured accordingly: blue = Stab, white = I., red = II., yellow = III., blue = IV, green = V.

Photographic evidence suggests that these markings were phased out prior to Barbarossa, though in late 1944 were seen again on a number of Me 262s operating with KG (J) 54. Here, they appeared as a diagonal stripe on the fuselage side from below the windscreen to the wing trailing edge. They too were phased in early April 1945 when they were assigned the blue and white RV karoband.

I might also suggest reviewing Band I of Ulf Balke’s opus on KG 2 for possible additional information on this aircraft and action:

Balke, Ulf, 1990.
Der Luftkrieg in Europa: Die operativen Einsätz des Kampfgeschwaders 2 im Zweiten Weltkrieg.
Bernard & Graefe, Koblenz (2 volumes).

Cheers,

David

PS: I would check my copies for you if I could but am taking a break here at work!

D.

Re: photographs of crashed Do17 U5+DA on ebay.
 

Good evening Matti !

Since I'm very often due to my job in the area , I'd like to say almost certainly, that this incident took place in Rehlingen near Beckingen on the Saar-River, Germany.

The aircraft landed at the Wester banks of the Saar-river, facing it's nose in Western direction.

On photo # 5, you can see in the (closer) background a wooded area from the center to the right edge of the picture. This is a wooded ridge between Sarrfels and Beckingen on the Eastern bank of the Saar-river. The more far away-located hill (center to left edge of the picture) and it's visible houses are from Saarfels amd Menningen.

On photo # 2, you can see much clearer the first houses of Menningen on the higher hill.

On the photo with the ail-section, you can see the church of Rehlingen.

Now go and have a look at Google-Earth !

On my opinion, no doubts, that this Do-17 landed at Rehlingen/Saar.

Best regards !

Horst Weber

Re: photographs of crashed Do17 U5+DA on ebay.
 

Although I'm not Matti ;), I have to say danke Horst for your reply.

Regards,
Bf 110

Re: photographs of crashed Do17 U5+DA on ebay.
 

Horst, et.al.

Great effort here and my appreciation to all who have helped with this, especially Horst who was able to nail this down definitively. Now if we can get the full W.Nr. of this and the location of the swastica (fin only or tail centered), perhaps even from the seller, we will have everything we need to use this as one of our KG2 color profiles. Anybody got the time or interest to contact the German seller to see if we can get these from the original prints? I'm not fluent in German and this is always a problem for me.

I note David Brown's comments about markings. David, are you saying that the nose band would be green rather than blue. I thought Gruppenstab was green and Geschwaderstab was blue. Am I wrong about this. I have Balke's KG2 books, but have not yet had the material on markings translated.

Regards,

Re: photographs of crashed Do17 U5+DA on ebay.
 

Hi Larry,

You are correct. I was relying on memory and confused the two - correction noted above.

Generally, green 25 and red 23 have the same grey tone in panchromatic prints and hence appear lighter than 70 and 71. The images of this aircraft reveal a rather dark band and letter 'A', which would confirm the use of blue. However, I believe that in rare cases green 25 was used for Kampfgeschwaderstab aircraft for whatever reasons.

I checked Balke and see (Band I, p.457) that this aircraft made a notlandung "bei Rehlingen" with 40% damage, but is dated the 19th. Unfortunately, he lists no information on the aircraft's complete code, werknummer and crew.

Cheers,

David

Re: photographs of crashed Do17 U5+DA on ebay.
 

David/Matti,

We also carry this in our EOE Luft DB on the 19th:

"May 19, 1940: Stab KG2 Dornier Do17Z. Believed engine damaged in attack by F/O Kain of No. 73 Squadron east of Metz and forced-landed near Rehlingen, Saar, Germany 6.00 a.m. Crew unhurt. Aircraft 40% damaged but repairable."

I don't know why Matti has this on the 18th (typo??). This couldn't be from an NVM as there were apparently no crew casualties. Anybody have a source for crew names on this one?

Regards,

Re: photographs of crashed Do17 U5+DA on ebay.
 

Larry: Of interest I have just won another photo (for a mere Euro) of the same crash which I will make available to the database when it turns up. No codes, markings or Wk Nr I am afraid

Re: photographs of crashed Do17 U5+DA on ebay.
 

Again I have no explanation to different date. It is not a typo, because I have written in my database a note "GQM: 1940-05-19". Anyway, my date is not yet confirmed, so please stay with GQM date.

Matti

Re: photographs of crashed Do17 U5+DA on ebay.
 

Hello gentlemen,

good news. I have contacted the seller. He says, that the W.nr. is 2581 and the swastica is on the fin underneath the W.nr. :)

Kind Regards,
Bf 110

Re: photographs of crashed Do17 U5+DA on ebay.
 

Hello,

You guys are all wonderful, with the help that you've been giving on issues such as the ID of this aircraft. This just continued to prove the tremendous power of shared effort and collaboration, multiplied a hundred times by our ability to work together and communicate efficiently over the internet, using tools such as this website and the LEMB.

Now, if we can just acquire copies of these images for the EOE photo data base, we'll have everything possible for the artist's profile package. Chris, thanks for your offer of another photo of the aircraft. I look forward to seeing the copy when it arrives.

Regards,

Re: photographs of crashed Do17 U5+DA on ebay.
 

Hello,

Based upon the W.Nr. 2581, does anyone know what the full subtype would be for this a/c, and the month of manufacture of the a/c?

Regards,

Re: photographs of crashed Do17 U5+DA on ebay.
 

Hello Larry and all others,

the auction has ended, but I wasn't successful. :cry: Hope, the winner is a member of this forum and will provide the photographs for EOE project.

Best regards,
Bf 110

Re: photographs of crashed Do17 U5+DA on ebay.
 

Hello Larry,

in AirDOCs WWII Combat Aircraft Photo Archive No. 03 Dornier Do 17 E-Z, Do 215 B on page 51 there is another photo of the a/c stated as Do 17 Z-1.

Kind regards,
Bf 110

Re: photographs of crashed Do17 U5+DA on ebay.
 

Bf110,

Very helpful reference! The Do17/215 AirDoc photo is very similar to the one that Chris Goss just sent me, but also allows us to properly position the swastica on the tail, which isn't visible in his photo. Don't know how accurate the AirDoc assessment of this being a Z-1 is. If a published subtype/W.Nr./manufacturer's date cross reference exists for the Do17, that should tell us what subtype 2581 was. Don't know if anyone has ever published that or not.

Regards,