Oberammergau crash - 332nd FG involved ?
 

Allo!

I came back from Oberammergau (Bayern) where I met some witnesses of one - but possibly two - crash(es) at one day apart. As often, precise info's lack and testimonies are quite messy.

A lady remembered a dogfight between two fighters, resulting in the fall of an allied aircraft (the pilot was a 'black' man as said!). The next day, a US bomber crashed in the area (where?) with at least one casualty.
I was shown the crash area in Moors lands, North of Oberammergau.

Back to papers:
On the 18th July 44, at least 03 P-51 of 332nd FG were lost in the area of Kempten (escort for Memmingen A/F bombing); which is not very far from O'gau.
The next day, a B-24 (42-52401) from 760th BS was lost near Kelschau (NE of O'gau) with the navigator dead.

I am wondering if it could be one of those P-51 (Hutton, Irving or Browne) lost on the 18/07/44 which crashed in Oberammergau?

Moreover it seems there is a claim for a P-51 by Uffz. Hans HAHN of 3./JG 300 on the 18/07/44 at 10.50 near Staffelsee which is roughly 15 km NE from O'gau.

Has a 'local' researcher investigated in that particular loss?

Best regards

ClinA-78

Re: Oberammergau crash - 332nd FG involved ?
 

It could Lt. Gene C. Browne who belly landed his Mustang after being shot down by a BF-109 and became a POW. Lt. Washington Irving was KIA in aerial combat. Lt Oscar D. Hutton was killed in a accident when his Mustang was hit by a belly tank dropped from another plane while flying northeast of Venice headed for home base.

Re: Oberammergau crash - 332nd FG involved ?
 

Hi Kaki,

No, the aircraft dived into the soggy ground, making a crater; that is sure.

Should we consider Irving's crash? Unfortunately, I don't know if this pilot (or airman) involved really survived...
Perhaps witness mistook the 'black man' for a wounded (burnt) POW of the B-24 crew?

Every doors are open...

Re: Oberammergau crash - 332nd FG involved ?
 

2nd Lt Wellington G. Irving is reported KIA on wwiimemorial.com.

Perhaps interesting to read: http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/m...27992bc8b.html

Regards,

Leendert

Re: Oberammergau crash - 332nd FG involved ?
 

I would say it was Lt. Washington Irving.

Re: Oberammergau crash - 332nd FG involved ?
 

So MIA or KIA?

Re: Oberammergau crash - 332nd FG involved ?
 

No Lt W.G. Irving (be it Washington or Wellington) on the DTIC MIA list.
He's reported KIA on the wwiimemorial list.

See http://www.tuskegee.edu/Uploads/file...egeeAirmen.pdf

Regards,

Leendert

Re: Oberammergau crash - 332nd FG involved ?
 

whoops, wrote Washington instead of Wellington,

Re: Oberammergau crash - 332nd FG involved ?
 

Re: Oberammergau crash - 332nd FG involved ?
 

Oops too quick:

Has a marker but still MIA... It becomes interesting.

Re: Oberammergau crash - 332nd FG involved ?
 

Another link:
http://blogs.orlandosentinel.com/tra...skegee-airmen/

Re: Oberammergau crash - 332nd FG involved ?
 

My very good friend Flupke - thanks a lot - provides me with a listing quoting some wreckages (I don't remember the naming of the original doc) and the reference to a report (such as the J-... series).

Does someone has access to them and would like to share them ? I presume a lot of them are lost but who knows?

Whatever, at least, there are 3-4 losses in Oberammergau area on the 17-18th July 1944, all of them... Mustang

1°) 17/7/44 forenoon Mustang Grafenachschau (= Grafenaschau, 7 km NE O'gau) ME 1589
2°) 18/7/44 forenoon Mustang NE of Oberammergau ME 1672
3°) 18/7/44 1035 Mustang Near Kohlgrub (8 km N O'gau) ME 1632
4°) 18/7/44 1100 Mustang N of Oberammergau ME 1670

They should be some duplication and inaccurancy but perhaps in one of those reports we would get the location matching the O'gau crashsite?

Best regards

ClinA-78

Re: Oberammergau crash - 332nd FG involved ?
 

Hi

The Mustang reported crashed near Grafenaschau is in fact s/n 43-6854 of 1st Lt Charles O. HERMAN (31 FG/308 FS) KIA on the 18/7/44. Kohlgrub is very close to Grafenaschau and should be the same aicraft.

Are those 'ME...' reports kept at the NARA or somewhere else?

Best regards

ClinA-78

Re: Oberammergau crash - 332nd FG involved ?
 

Any guess?

I should have named that thread with 'Tuskegee' or 'Red Tails' stuffs, perhaps it would have brought more interest... :D

Best regards and, once again, thank you for your attention.

ClinA-78

Re: Oberammergau crash - 332nd FG involved ?
 

It would be interesting to determine if the LT Irving is really still MIA and if his crash-site can be located.
abmc.gov does not list a LT W. Irving MIA, nor KIA, which indicates that if his remains have been recovered, he was re-interred into a stateside cemetery.

Very few Tuskegee airmen are listed MIA and most that are, crashed into water. If he truly is still MIA and the site can be located, then we can recover his remains before 2013 is over.

Danny

Re: Oberammergau crash - 332nd FG involved ?
 

According this newspaper article, Lt Irving is buried at Vicksburg National Cemetery, Vicksburg, Mississippi and thus not mentioned on MIA lists.

See http://www.nps.gov/vick/parknews/vic...tory-month.htm

Regards,

Leendert

Re: Oberammergau crash - 332nd FG involved ?
 

Thanks Gent's for your attention.

It puzzles me a little bit as Irving has a marker in Vicksburg cemetery but his remains seem not been recovered - according to the former link I have posted :

"My friend Gary & I went to the Vicksburg National Cemetery this morning to find Lt. Irving’s marker – his remains were never found – and pay our respects."

Better is to order the IDPF before going further in this story.

@ Danny: "then we can recover his remains before 2013 is over"; why before this year? I was thinking about that possibility and your experience should be interesting.

Best regards

ClinA-78

Re: Oberammergau crash - 332nd FG involved ?
 

[quote=ClinA-78;158879]
Whatever, at least, there are 3-4 losses in Oberammergau area on the 17-18th July 1944, all of them... Mustang

1°) 17/7/44 forenoon Mustang Grafenachschau (= Grafenaschau, 7 km NE O'gau) ME 1589
2°) 18/7/44 forenoon Mustang NE of Oberammergau ME 1672
3°) 18/7/44 1035 Mustang Near Kohlgrub (8 km N O'gau) ME 1632
4°) 18/7/44 1100 Mustang N of Oberammergau ME 1670

One of the Oberammergau P-51's belonged to my father. I've received wonderful news than a historian is in the process of digging up pieces of it and has records of eyewitness acounts of the battl, crash and capture of my father, Lt Gene C. Browne.

Re: Oberammergau crash - 332nd FG involved ?
 

ClinA, sorry that it took me soo long to repsond. Originally I was supposed to retire in 2013, but I am now retiring this August. Have you ever found out more about this crash (Irving)? I am still stationed in Bavaria, though near Regensburg. Danny

Re: Oberammergau crash - 332nd FG involved ?
 

Gentlemen,
last summer I had the chance to live 3 weeks in Oberammergau and I studied the case in the context of the whole airbattle on 18 July 1944 (Mission to Memmingen airfield) where the 332nd FG should provide escort coverage for the bombers.

In short:
I met an eyewittnes of the crash of 2nd Lt Gene C. Browne with the statement - I saw a pilot coming down on a parachute and he was black. Aircraft itself came down about 100m in front of here, while she was hiding in a barn. Next day she saw the prisoner looking out of a cellar of the Passion Play Theatre in Oberammergau. She could see only the eyes and the teeth. Everything else was black.

A local friend did a search and found pieces with oliv trap and red color. These were sent to the 332nd FG Association and concluded, based on part numbers and matching with a real "Mustang", these parts belong to a P-51.

We received the diary of 2nd Lt Browne, where he stated he met on the way to the prison camp a B-24 crew, shot down a day after Browne's event.
This B-24 matches with MACR 7055, investigation is in progress. There are some indications that 1st Lt Charles O. Herman came down with his P-51 not far away.

Cline, when you are at NATO school Oberammergau go to the Town Archive. The lady there has my report.

Regards

Jörg

Re: Oberammergau crash - 332nd FG involved ?
 

Hello,

Surprised to get replies from a 'forgotten' thread.

@ First of all, SORRY Gene, just read your reply of November 2013! I suppose you get all the info's from Joerg.

@ Joerg. Nice to learn there are researchers in the area. My stays at O'gau were always brief and due to my very limited knowledge of German language, I lost a lot of info's. Moreover my chance to come back to O'gau (for professional reasons) are now limited due to a job change in the BAF. I also met Claus who maintains the Eisenhower's Museum and had a nice supper with them.

I get on the spot where a supposed P-51 crashed, 1 km NW of the city, in marshland. Does it correspond to Browne's Mustang location?

The few witnesses I met were mixing stories. The B-24 crashed farther in the mountain toward Grafenaschau.
The MACR of Herman contains a precise location of his crashsite. I went in Grafenaschau but found no witness.

This is a nice story and I suppose you share it with Gene Browne?

I would be interested by reading your report about crashes in O'gau and in the area, just by curiosity.
The case of Irving stay puzzling me a bit.
Have you find others stuffs about him?

@ Danny, no, sorry but the current thread may bring answers! So stay tuned. We need to talk together about recoveries as we share the same passion. Have you still connections with researchers in Belgium? You know, I still have a lot of work here after your retirement :D

Keep this post alive.

Best regards

ClinA-78

Re: Oberammergau crash - 332nd FG involved ?
 

ClinA, doing a recovery in 2 weeks in your country, on the border to Germany near Verviers. Let's talk soon. Danny
P.S. This is a possible MIA case.

Re: Oberammergau crash - 332nd FG involved ?
 

Contact/PM me at while.

ClinA-78