Rudorffer on 6.11.43, Kiev outscirts
 

Hi all!

Rudorffer again. With pictures.

So, on 6th November Kiev, beautiful capital of Ukraine, was liberatred.
Soviet army pushed retreating gremans to the west from sity.

Luftwaffe tried to hold the line, and Yak fighters of 256 iad were ordered to patrol west frim Kiev (marked red on map).
http://uploads.ru/?v=v5WSu.jpg

http://uploads.ru/?v=v5WSu.jpg

Germans involved:

II./JG52 (Bf109G, Uman)
II./JG54 (Fw190A, Shitomir)
Stab/St.G.77 (Wasilkov, Ju87D)
II./SG77 (Kalinowka, Fw190A/F, ex-I./Sch.G.1)
III./SG77 (Kalinowka, Ju87D, ex-III./St.G.77)
III./SG10 (Wasilkov, Ju87D, ex-II./St.G.77)

Soviet forces:

upr. 256 iad
0 claims
Losses:
Yak, Kolesnichenko (KIA).

728iap
12 claims:
7 FW-190,
4 Ju-87
1 He-111 (confirmed He 111H-16 of II/KG 53, s/d by k-n Ignatjev).
Own losses:
Yak of l-t Khalatjan, slightly damaged on c/m and bellylanded on friendly territory, pilot returned unhurt.

91iap
20 claims:
10 Ju87
8 "fighters"
Fw189 (FW 189A-2 (265) M4+CR from 7.(H)/32 (NAGr.6) shot down by Ml.l-t Vatagin)
Ju52.
Losses:
- 3 Yak - Romanenko (was shot down by AAA), Grevtzov, Shilov.

32iap
1 claim:
Bf109 (confirmed - Bf109G W.Nr.410082 from 6./JG52, s/d by L-t A.N.Konyaev)
Losses:
-no

Ground attackers lost: 6 Ju87 in air to fighters and AAA (shot down, damaged and crashed et.c.) and 1 damaged Ju87 was destroyed on Wasilkov airfield when retreating.

Fw190 losses not known for me, unfortunatly.

Anyway, VVS lost 5 YaK to all reasons (AAA, fighters and Ju87 gunners), while Rudorffer claimed 13 in one mission, + 5 claimed his wingman.

Re: Rudorffer on 6.11.43, Kiev outscirts
 

Were any of these Yaks actually lost in the time frame and area of Rudorffer's and the other claimers of JG 54?

Re: Rudorffer on 6.11.43, Kiev outscirts
 

I have only 1 Fw 190 lost on the Eastern Front that day and that was a crashlanding due to fuel exhaustion.

Would seem to be a lot of overclaiming by everyone!

Re: Rudorffer on 6.11.43, Kiev outscirts
 

Evgeny, Is Shilov the same as Lt. Mikhail Mikhaylovich Shilov of the 91 IAP who went MIA on 16Jul44?

Also Mikhail Bykov has for Mayor Aleksandr Sergeevich Romanenko 91 IAP as "Did not return from combat mission" (Presumably shot down by enemy AAA). So it's possible that he fell victim to a fighter. The OBD has the location as Belgorodka Kryukovshchina(?) and the same location for Grevtsev. Still far from the claims made.

Re: Rudorffer on 6.11.43, Kiev outscirts
 

Did any other Luftwaffe pilots make claims in this time and area?

Thanks,

Rob Romero

Re: Rudorffer on 6.11.43, Kiev outscirts
 

Michael - M.Bykov said about Romanenko, that he was shot down by AAA, and even possible by OWN AAA, as stated in documents.

Shilov - I dont know, cant check now (Im not at home).

Rob - as I know - not, Stab II./JG54 were only to fill claims.

Next step - I 'll search about 18 claims on one day by Emil Lang over Kiev.

Re: Rudorffer on 6.11.43, Kiev outscirts
 

Evgeny - Just glancing at Tony Woods list it looks like I/JG 51 was in that area during the day but not at the same time as Rudorffer. Was there other IAD in that region besides the 256 IAD?

Re: Rudorffer on 6.11.43, Kiev outscirts
 

JG51 flew NW from Kiev (and fought against La-5 units), JG54&JG52 - SW from sity.

Re: Rudorffer on 6.11.43, Kiev outscirts
 

Hi all,

This event was discussed on the old 12 O'clock High Forum and I copied what was put up back then to include in my own database but unfortunately I neglected to name the original source, so deepest apologies to whoever came up with the following, but it is worth quoting here:

256 IAD and 8 GIAD, 2 VA. Massive overclaiming, actual losses were: 3 Yak-7s and 3 La-5s lost in combats, 2 Yak-7s and 2 La-5s failed to return (not necessarily due to Fighters) and 3 La-5s compelled to make forced landings in friendly territory.

From this I concluded that of JG 54's claims, Rudorffer's and Tangermann's are exaggerated beyond all reconciliation but Wolf's and Leykauf's claims for La-5s are within the bounds of possibility.

Re: Rudorffer on 6.11.43, Kiev outscirts
 

Pilots of 6./JG 54 also made claims in the same area around 15:20 (German time) - 2 Yak-9 by Albin Wolf and 1 Yak-9 by Hugo Broch.

18 claims by Rudorffer and Tangermann (10 Yak-7 and 8 Yak-9) was made around 13:00 - 13:20.

Re: Rudorffer on 6.11.43, Kiev outscirts
 

Evgeny- On looking at1./JG 51 Fw. Gerd Schneider at 11:23 Jak 9 it's in 35 Ost/01584 the same sector as Rudorffer.

Also sometime during the day before he was killed Mayor Romanenko made a claim for a Ju 87 at Boyarka and a Fw 189 at Kiev. I wonder how many Fw 189 went down that day.

Re: Rudorffer on 6.11.43, Kiev outscirts
 

hm for the 6th of November I just found 1 Fw 189 damaged (40%) 20 km south-southwest of Kiev due to enemy (aircraft) fire, the Gnr. Ogefr. Bock was wounded.

khorat

Re: Rudorffer on 6.11.43, Kiev outscirts
 

8 GIAD, 235 IAD, 737 IAP/291 ShAD.

Re: Rudorffer on 6.11.43, Kiev outscirts
 

Now RE: Tangerman's & Rudorffer's claims; where there any other VVS single engine fighter units that suffered loss or damage that were the wrong type? After all 'aircraft ID' has always been a problem for LW pilots.

Re: Rudorffer on 6.11.43, Kiev outscirts
 

Is anything known of the specifics of 8 GIAD's losses? Who the pilots were and the causes of their losses?