Rudorffer on 6.11.43, Kiev outscirts

[Evgeny Velichko]

Hi all!

Rudorffer again. With pictures.

So, on 6th November Kiev, beautiful capital of Ukraine, was liberatred.
Soviet army pushed retreating gremans to the west from sity.

Luftwaffe tried to hold the line, and Yak fighters of 256 iad were ordered to patrol west frim Kiev (marked red on map).
http://uploads.ru/?v=v5WSu.jpg



Germans involved:

II./JG52 (Bf109G, Uman)
II./JG54 (Fw190A, Shitomir)
Stab/St.G.77 (Wasilkov, Ju87D)
II./SG77 (Kalinowka, Fw190A/F, ex-I./Sch.G.1)
III./SG77 (Kalinowka, Ju87D, ex-III./St.G.77)
III./SG10 (Wasilkov, Ju87D, ex-II./St.G.77)

Soviet forces:

upr. 256 iad
0 claims
Losses:
Yak, Kolesnichenko (KIA).

728iap
12 claims:
7 FW-190,
4 Ju-87
1 He-111 (confirmed He 111H-16 of II/KG 53, s/d by k-n Ignatjev).
Own losses:
Yak of l-t Khalatjan, slightly damaged on c/m and bellylanded on friendly territory, pilot returned unhurt.

91iap
20 claims:
10 Ju87
8 "fighters"
Fw189 (FW 189A-2 (265) M4+CR from 7.(H)/32 (NAGr.6) shot down by Ml.l-t Vatagin)
Ju52.
Losses:
- 3 Yak - Romanenko (was shot down by AAA), Grevtzov, Shilov.

32iap
1 claim:
Bf109 (confirmed - Bf109G W.Nr.410082 from 6./JG52, s/d by L-t A.N.Konyaev)
Losses:
-no

Ground attackers lost: 6 Ju87 in air to fighters and AAA (shot down, damaged and crashed et.c.) and 1 damaged Ju87 was destroyed on Wasilkov airfield when retreating.

Fw190 losses not known for me, unfortunatly.

Anyway, VVS lost 5 YaK to all reasons (AAA, fighters and Ju87 gunners), while Rudorffer claimed 13 in one mission, + 5 claimed his wingman.

[Nokose]

Were any of these Yaks actually lost in the time frame and area of Rudorffer's and the other claimers of JG 54?

[John Beaman]

I have only 1 Fw 190 lost on the Eastern Front that day and that was a crashlanding due to fuel exhaustion.

Would seem to be a lot of overclaiming by everyone!

[Nokose]

Evgeny, Is Shilov the same as Lt. Mikhail Mikhaylovich Shilov of the 91 IAP who went MIA on 16Jul44?

Also Mikhail Bykov has for Mayor Aleksandr Sergeevich Romanenko 91 IAP as "Did not return from combat mission" (Presumably shot down by enemy AAA). So it's possible that he fell victim to a fighter. The OBD has the location as Belgorodka Kryukovshchina(?) and the same location for Grevtsev. Still far from the claims made.

[Rob Romero]

Did any other Luftwaffe pilots make claims in this time and area?

Thanks,

Rob Romero

[Evgeny Velichko]

Michael - M.Bykov said about Romanenko, that he was shot down by AAA, and even possible by OWN AAA, as stated in documents.

Shilov - I dont know, cant check now (Im not at home).

Rob - as I know - not, Stab II./JG54 were only to fill claims.

Next step - I 'll search about 18 claims on one day by Emil Lang over Kiev.

[Nokose]

Evgeny - Just glancing at Tony Woods list it looks like I/JG 51 was in that area during the day but not at the same time as Rudorffer. Was there other IAD in that region besides the 256 IAD?

[Evgeny Velichko]

JG51 flew NW from Kiev (and fought against La-5 units), JG54&JG52 - SW from sity.

[Nick Hector]

Hi all,

This event was discussed on the old 12 O'clock High Forum and I copied what was put up back then to include in my own database but unfortunately I neglected to name the original source, so deepest apologies to whoever came up with the following, but it is worth quoting here:

256 IAD and 8 GIAD, 2 VA. Massive overclaiming, actual losses were: 3 Yak-7s and 3 La-5s lost in combats, 2 Yak-7s and 2 La-5s failed to return (not necessarily due to Fighters) and 3 La-5s compelled to make forced landings in friendly territory.

From this I concluded that of JG 54's claims, Rudorffer's and Tangermann's are exaggerated beyond all reconciliation but Wolf's and Leykauf's claims for La-5s are within the bounds of possibility.

[Maxim1]

Originally Posted by Evgeny Velichko

Rob - as I know - not, Stab II./JG54 were only to fill claims.

Pilots of 6./JG 54 also made claims in the same area around 15:20 (German time) - 2 Yak-9 by Albin Wolf and 1 Yak-9 by Hugo Broch.

18 claims by Rudorffer and Tangermann (10 Yak-7 and 8 Yak-9) was made around 13:00 - 13:20.