JG51 Escort 24th August 1940 08:30 to 10:00
 

I'm trying to identify a Ju88 shot down in the first raid 08:30 hrs to 10:00 hrs on the 24th August 1940.

Spitfires and Hurricanes are listed as being engaged at approx. 08:30hrs UK time while Luftwaffe records show claims for Spitfires and Hurricanes at 09:30 hrs.

The claims are from JG51 and AIl(K) Report 509/1940 has a diary from JG/51 pilot shot down 5/9/1940. For the 24th August it confirms his following operational flights
08:30 - 10:00 S England
10:30 - 12:00 Canterbury
13:15 - 14:50 Ramsgate
16:45 - 18:15 Dover

This suggest that the unit carried out 4 ops on this day.

My first question is what KG did they escort on the operation 08:30 to 10:00 hrs?

Regards
Ross

Re: JG51 Escort 24th August 1940 08:30 to 10:00
 

Ross,

No evidence that the first mission by JG51 on 24 August 1940 was escort for bombers. Certainly, 9./JG51 engaged RAF fighters over 'S England' between 08.30 - 10.00 (CET) that day Lt Karl-Heinz SCHNELL claiming a 'P36' at 09.40 hours. I believe that this is the 'Spitfire' mentioned in the diary obtained from Uffz Kurt KOCH on his unscheduled stop in this country on 7 September 1940. This possibly equates to the loss of ARNFIELD of 610 Squadron who was lost over Eastry around 08.50 hours (BST) though other German pilots filed equally persuasive claims.

A pre-strike recce over Canterbury resulted in the loss of a Ju88 of 5.(F)/122 in the Channel off Boulogne. Is this the aircraft that interests you ?

According to Heinrich WEISS, elements of JG51 were certainly among Lw fighter units that provided escort for a later attack on 'Canterbury' by He111s of KG1 planned for around 10.35 (CET) that morning.

Re: JG51 Escort 24th August 1940 08:30 to 10:00
 

Hi Peter,

I'm looking for some clues as to the possible identity of the Ju88 claimed by Sgt R F Hamlyn off Ramsgate at approx. 8 am on the 24th.

The Battle of Britain Then and Now - Ramsey et al suggests III/KG51, One NCO killed, two missing, one NCO rescued unhurt. Kampfgeschwader "Edelweiss" - Wolfgang Dierich (English version) makes no mention. Fighter Command War Diaries Sept 1939 to Sept 1940 - Foreman lists 2 claims of destroyed by No.610 Sqn and one claim of destroyed by No.85 Sqn.

Foreman adds: "24 August 1940: I was Yellow 2. I saw three waves of bombers approaching the S coast. I attacked one of these waves in which there were about 15-18 Junkers Ju88 at about 300 - 350 yards. I received a large amount of cross fire, but I didn't open fire until 250 yards. I gave a two second burst and saw one Ju88 dive away from the rest and I watched it crash into the sea. I did not break away. but throttling back a Bf109 overshot me and pulled right up in front at about 150 yards. I opened fire and saw it starting to smoke. I followed it down and saw it also hit the sea.
Sgt R F Hamlyn, Yellow Section, 610 Sqn"

Eagle Day - Richard Collier retells this as: "Soon after 8 am on August 24, Hamyln's Spitfire, off Ramsgate, was diving from 12,000 feet onto a Junkers Ju88, hosing it with fire, watching it rip like a hydrofoil along the water's surface. Banking, he fastened on the tail of a Bf109, firing until this, too, fell, trailing a red garland of flame. By 9 am, Hamlyn was back at his home base..."

Hamlyn's Combat report for this event does not appear in AIR50 at the TNA.

AIR27/703 No.85 Sqn ORB confirms combat and claim of an Bf109 by P/O Allard 3 miles off Ramsgate at about 14,000 feet
AIR27/2106 No.610 Sqn ORB confirms combat and claims of Ju88 and Bf109 by Sgt Hamlyn at 12,000 feet stepped in 3 waves stepped line astern off Ramsgate.

Try as I might I have been unable to move beyond the BoB Then and Now suggestion of III/KG51 and any suggestions or pointers would be most welcome.

All this points to more than a lone aircraft and I was hoping to come at it from the other direction of looking to identify escort then who they were escorting.

Regards
Ross

Re: JG51 Escort 24th August 1940 08:30 to 10:00
 

Ross,
Hamlyn's combat report for Aug 24 is in Air 50/172-153&154. It is on the microfilm at least, if no longer available as hard copy. Glad I had the 300 and 600 series squadron CRs microfilmed before the thief got at them.

Enjoy!

Frank.

Re: JG51 Escort 24th August 1940 08:30 to 10:00
 

Frank,

On the same day, in the morning, Sgt A. Glowacki (151 sqdn) claimed Bf109 destroyed NW Dover. Is there a combat report filed in Kew ?

TIA

Bertrand

Re: JG51 Escort 24th August 1940 08:30 to 10:00
 

Hi Frank,

Just downloaded the pieces from the TNA

AIR50/172/153 is a report from 22/06/1943 from F/O Wood and Sgt Fallon
AIR50/172/154 is the same report.

Looking at the pdf file reference headers they seem to be AIR 50-172-0-138 and 139.

I'll get onto the TNA but in the mean time any chance of a copy or transcript from your source?

Regards
Ross

Re: JG51 Escort 24th August 1940 08:30 to 10:00
 

Re: JG51 Escort 24th August 1940 08:30 to 10:00
 

I don't know if this Ultra (CX/JQ/247) is of any help. Please excuse the composite image, a product of uneven lighting and the paragraph running over two pages.

Re: JG51 Escort 24th August 1940 08:30 to 10:00
 

Nick: Not wishing to go off at a tangent and noticing the mention of Brize Norton, does ULTRA say anything about Ju 88/He 111 attacks on 16 Aug 40 again Brize and Benson?
Ross: The fate of the Ju 88 of KG 51 is mentioned in Brothers in Arms

Re: JG51 Escort 24th August 1940 08:30 to 10:00
 

The only thing I can see that might be relevant is this (CX/JQ/227, T9, paragraph 14):

On 16/8 JG 2 and ZG 2 are to make their fourth attack (2nd day), probable zero hour being 0830 hours. At 1500 hours attack "LUDWIG" is expected to be made, probably by KG 54, JG 2 and possibly ZG 2. Definitive decision still to be communicated. 4 (F) 121 will make weather reconnaissance.

Re: JG51 Escort 24th August 1940 08:30 to 10:00
 

Cheers Gents,

Frank - found the combat report now - many thanks for the steer. It has the same words as Foreman and not Collier but with the addition of hand written designation of aiming points.

Ju88 combat timed at 08:25 hrs and Bf109 at 08:30 hrs.

Peter - It's difficult to reconcile the numbers and formation of raid described by both No.610 and No.85 Sqn as being associated with the 5.(F)/122 unless they were either operating in three waves or had attached to the larger bomber formation.

Thanks for the update on KG53 loss - this makes sense for something else in my files, especially with the Ultra from Nick.

So I'm back to a seabed Ju88 wreck with empty external bomb racks in the location described by Hamlyn combat report, showing signs of ditched landing and jettison of rear cockpit canopy.

My short list of possible identities with the exception of Hamlyn's claim all arrived at the sea surface at high speed and sharp angles from height. (more like that suggested in Hamlyn's combat report rather than Colliers description).

So I'm not really much further forward - JG51 was in operation 8 to 10am over S England but no clue as to county eg Kent to Hampshire. I think I can eliminate some KGs from the Ultra leaving the remaining.

Always possible that the wreck is from a unit I've missed so I'll go back over the paper trail.

Regards
Ross

Re: JG51 Escort 24th August 1940 08:30 to 10:00
 

"So I'm back to a seabed Ju88 wreck with empty external bomb racks"

Of possible relevance:

CX/JQ/248 [extracts]

8. Sea Rescue Lifeboat BRUNFISCH put out from OSTEND at 0820 hours on 24/8.

10. An a/c was reported by the Sea Rescue Station at OSTEND to have been shot down early on 24/8 in Square 11232 in area 11.

T7, 11. According to an OSTEND report dated 1000 hours on 24/8 the vessel "BRUNFISCH" was at her position near NIEUPORT, "SUNBOY" was ready for sea but could not put out owing ot weather and GORCH FOCH was lying at the shipyard.

CX/JQ/249 [extract]

2. At 1230 Seenotzentrale BOULOGNE ordered a He 59 and Staffel 2/906 to be in readiness until nightfall. Further position 8774 (centre bottom) on the Naval Grid was to be occupied till further notice; or till nightfall.

CX/JQ/250 [extract]

1. On 24/8 source saw the following report for 24/8 from LN Regt. 12:

II-12 reports at 1455 hrs. a Ju 88 crashed in the sea. Crew baled out. Fliegerkorps 8 informed.

Trupp 12 of 4 - Lehr reports at 1545 hrs. a Bf 109 crashed in the sea. One man baled out.

In the two latter cases Seenotdienst CHERBOURG was informed.

Re: JG51 Escort 24th August 1940 08:30 to 10:00
 

Bertrand,
I do not have PRO references for any of Glowacki's combat reports on Aug 24. Just the references in the 501 Sqn ORB, and Aces High.

Sorry.

Frank.

Re: JG51 Escort 24th August 1940 08:30 to 10:00
 

Frank,

Thanks fr replying. I will ask on RAFcommands forum if there is Glowacki's combat reports on Aug 24 at Kew.

Bertrand