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  #1  
Old 23rd July 2013, 21:51
rafcommands rafcommands is offline
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JG51 Escort 24th August 1940 08:30 to 10:00

I'm trying to identify a Ju88 shot down in the first raid 08:30 hrs to 10:00 hrs on the 24th August 1940.

Spitfires and Hurricanes are listed as being engaged at approx. 08:30hrs UK time while Luftwaffe records show claims for Spitfires and Hurricanes at 09:30 hrs.

The claims are from JG51 and AIl(K) Report 509/1940 has a diary from JG/51 pilot shot down 5/9/1940. For the 24th August it confirms his following operational flights
08:30 - 10:00 S England
10:30 - 12:00 Canterbury
13:15 - 14:50 Ramsgate
16:45 - 18:15 Dover

This suggest that the unit carried out 4 ops on this day.

My first question is what KG did they escort on the operation 08:30 to 10:00 hrs?

Regards
Ross
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Old 24th July 2013, 09:09
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Re: JG51 Escort 24th August 1940 08:30 to 10:00

Ross,

No evidence that the first mission by JG51 on 24 August 1940 was escort for bombers. Certainly, 9./JG51 engaged RAF fighters over 'S England' between 08.30 - 10.00 (CET) that day Lt Karl-Heinz SCHNELL claiming a 'P36' at 09.40 hours. I believe that this is the 'Spitfire' mentioned in the diary obtained from Uffz Kurt KOCH on his unscheduled stop in this country on 7 September 1940. This possibly equates to the loss of ARNFIELD of 610 Squadron who was lost over Eastry around 08.50 hours (BST) though other German pilots filed equally persuasive claims.

A pre-strike recce over Canterbury resulted in the loss of a Ju88 of 5.(F)/122 in the Channel off Boulogne. Is this the aircraft that interests you ?

According to Heinrich WEISS, elements of JG51 were certainly among Lw fighter units that provided escort for a later attack on 'Canterbury' by He111s of KG1 planned for around 10.35 (CET) that morning.
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Old 24th July 2013, 09:30
rafcommands rafcommands is offline
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Re: JG51 Escort 24th August 1940 08:30 to 10:00

Hi Peter,

I'm looking for some clues as to the possible identity of the Ju88 claimed by Sgt R F Hamlyn off Ramsgate at approx. 8 am on the 24th.

The Battle of Britain Then and Now - Ramsey et al suggests III/KG51, One NCO killed, two missing, one NCO rescued unhurt. Kampfgeschwader "Edelweiss" - Wolfgang Dierich (English version) makes no mention. Fighter Command War Diaries Sept 1939 to Sept 1940 - Foreman lists 2 claims of destroyed by No.610 Sqn and one claim of destroyed by No.85 Sqn.

Foreman adds: "24 August 1940: I was Yellow 2. I saw three waves of bombers approaching the S coast. I attacked one of these waves in which there were about 15-18 Junkers Ju88 at about 300 - 350 yards. I received a large amount of cross fire, but I didn't open fire until 250 yards. I gave a two second burst and saw one Ju88 dive away from the rest and I watched it crash into the sea. I did not break away. but throttling back a Bf109 overshot me and pulled right up in front at about 150 yards. I opened fire and saw it starting to smoke. I followed it down and saw it also hit the sea.
Sgt R F Hamlyn, Yellow Section, 610 Sqn"

Eagle Day - Richard Collier retells this as: "Soon after 8 am on August 24, Hamyln's Spitfire, off Ramsgate, was diving from 12,000 feet onto a Junkers Ju88, hosing it with fire, watching it rip like a hydrofoil along the water's surface. Banking, he fastened on the tail of a Bf109, firing until this, too, fell, trailing a red garland of flame. By 9 am, Hamlyn was back at his home base..."

Hamlyn's Combat report for this event does not appear in AIR50 at the TNA.

AIR27/703 No.85 Sqn ORB confirms combat and claim of an Bf109 by P/O Allard 3 miles off Ramsgate at about 14,000 feet
AIR27/2106 No.610 Sqn ORB confirms combat and claims of Ju88 and Bf109 by Sgt Hamlyn at 12,000 feet stepped in 3 waves stepped line astern off Ramsgate.

Try as I might I have been unable to move beyond the BoB Then and Now suggestion of III/KG51 and any suggestions or pointers would be most welcome.

All this points to more than a lone aircraft and I was hoping to come at it from the other direction of looking to identify escort then who they were escorting.

Regards
Ross
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Old 24th July 2013, 14:16
Frank Olynyk Frank Olynyk is offline
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Re: JG51 Escort 24th August 1940 08:30 to 10:00

Ross,
Hamlyn's combat report for Aug 24 is in Air 50/172-153&154. It is on the microfilm at least, if no longer available as hard copy. Glad I had the 300 and 600 series squadron CRs microfilmed before the thief got at them.

Enjoy!

Frank.
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Old 24th July 2013, 14:50
Bertrand H Bertrand H is offline
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Re: JG51 Escort 24th August 1940 08:30 to 10:00

Frank,

On the same day, in the morning, Sgt A. Glowacki (151 sqdn) claimed Bf109 destroyed NW Dover. Is there a combat report filed in Kew ?

TIA

Bertrand
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Old 24th July 2013, 15:47
rafcommands rafcommands is offline
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Re: JG51 Escort 24th August 1940 08:30 to 10:00

Hi Frank,

Just downloaded the pieces from the TNA

AIR50/172/153 is a report from 22/06/1943 from F/O Wood and Sgt Fallon
AIR50/172/154 is the same report.

Looking at the pdf file reference headers they seem to be AIR 50-172-0-138 and 139.

I'll get onto the TNA but in the mean time any chance of a copy or transcript from your source?

Regards
Ross
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Old 24th July 2013, 17:02
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Re: JG51 Escort 24th August 1940 08:30 to 10:00

Ross,

In this context, you can ignore the III./KG51 reference quoted in BoBT&N. With the benefit of further research over the intervening 30-odd years since its original publication that particular loss is now more accurately documented as follows:

7./KG51 Junkers Ju88A-1 (7072). Badly damaged by fighters during sortie to Portsmouth and crashed in the Channel 10 km north of Le Havre. BS Gefr Robert Pfaff killed, BO Uffz Johannes Schulze and FF Uffz Karl Maurer both missing, Bordfunker believed rescued unhurt. Aircraft 9K+BR 100% write-off.
The body of Robert Pfaff was later recovered by the Seenotdienst off Le Havre.

The claims filed by ‘DOGROSE Yellow 2’ Sgt HAMLYN of No.610 Squadron (DW*Q R6891) following that sortie are as you describe, also that by ‘HYDRO Yellow 1’ Sgt ALLARD of No.85 Squadron (VY*K). Allocating specific losses to these claims is the usual fraught business but it begins to look to me as if the Ju88 encountered by HAMLYN may well have been a singleton and as mentioned in my earlier thread, thus:

5.(F)/122 Junkers Ju88. Believed shot down by fighters during reconnaissance sortie to Canterbury and crashed in the Channel off Boulogne. FF Lt Meinulf Hellermann killed, BO Lt Karl Hurck, BF Uffz Franz Schmidtler, and BM Uffz Erich Kromer all missing. Aircraft 100% write-off.

Furthermore, 9./JG51 did lose one 109 that day which may or may not be relevant:

9./JG51 Messerschmitt Bf109E-1. Shot down in combat with fighters over the Channel. FF Uffz Theodor Kröll killed. Aircraft 100% write-off.
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Old 24th July 2013, 17:40
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Re: JG51 Escort 24th August 1940 08:30 to 10:00

I don't know if this Ultra (CX/JQ/247) is of any help. Please excuse the composite image, a product of uneven lighting and the paragraph running over two pages.
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Old 24th July 2013, 18:38
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Re: JG51 Escort 24th August 1940 08:30 to 10:00

Nick: Not wishing to go off at a tangent and noticing the mention of Brize Norton, does ULTRA say anything about Ju 88/He 111 attacks on 16 Aug 40 again Brize and Benson?
Ross: The fate of the Ju 88 of KG 51 is mentioned in Brothers in Arms
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Old 24th July 2013, 19:01
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Re: JG51 Escort 24th August 1940 08:30 to 10:00

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Goss View Post
... does ULTRA say anything about Ju 88/He 111 attacks on 16 Aug 40 again Brize and Benson?
The only thing I can see that might be relevant is this (CX/JQ/227, T9, paragraph 14):
On 16/8 JG 2 and ZG 2 are to make their fourth attack (2nd day), probable zero hour being 0830 hours. At 1500 hours attack "LUDWIG" is expected to be made, probably by KG 54, JG 2 and possibly ZG 2. Definitive decision still to be communicated. 4 (F) 121 will make weather reconnaissance.
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