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Soviet naval aircraft type

Can anyone shed a light on the type of this downed Soviet naval aircraft?

Thanks, in advance,

Re: Soviet naval aircraft type

Not really Dénes

But it looks like a Yakovlev Yak-4 to me.
Few were built and although I did not know any were used by the Soviet Naval Aviation, it would be interesting to know more about it.

Cheers
Stig

Re: Soviet naval aircraft type

I am certain this is not a Yak-4. This one is much larger in size.
I have a feeling it's a Lend-Lease aircraft, but cannot ID it.

Re: Soviet naval aircraft type

Looks like a Pe2 to me. What we used to call Pe2FT, with the turret which is fairly distinctive.

Re: Soviet naval aircraft type

Well Dénes

How many twin finned twin engined lend-lease aircraft did the Soviets get?
Albemarle? No it is not
Hampden? No it is not
Mitchell? No it is not
Ventura? No it is not
I cannot come up with any more than that.

The number of twin finned twin engined Soviet aircraft was not all that many and I still think the Yak-4 is a good bet. Look at how close the pilot and rear gunner is situated. You have the Pe-2 off course, but I still feel the Yak-4 is closer.... Span was 14 meters which should be pretty accurate to my eyes.

Cheers
Stig

Re: Soviet naval aircraft type

Stig, the gunner of the Yak-4 was not as close to the pilot as seen in the photo. The gunner of the Pe-2 was closer to the pilot as seen in the photo.

Also the vertical fin looks like more like that of the Pe-2.

Dénes, why do you think it is a Soviet naval a/c? The navy could just be savaging an a/c.

Re: Soviet naval aircraft type

No worries Guys

I can settle for a Pe-2FT:)

Cheers
Stig

Re: Soviet naval aircraft type

It is a VMF PE-2 fished by the Germans and probably this of 40 BAP Black Sea Fleet

Re: Soviet naval aircraft type

The other distinctive feature showing this is a Pe2 not a Yak 4 is the mid-fuselage gunner's position.

What is unusual is the red star on the upper wing. Supposedly these were not carried.

Re: Soviet naval aircraft type

Graham, I fully agree with you regarding the type and the red star, however some of the VMF Northern & Black see fleet PE-2 dispatched from the Irkutsk factory may have carried such though as you stated was unusual .

Re: Soviet naval aircraft type

It is a VMF PE-2 fished by the Germans could possibly be this of 40 BAP Black Sea Fleet in 1941 or the later on in 1944 29 AP attached to the Russian Navy
otherwise VMF Northern Fleet

Re: Soviet naval aircraft type

1941 is impossible, since the white edge of the red star was introduced much later during the war.

Re: Soviet naval aircraft type

Gabor, like always is very good to see you again and hear your valuable opinions, ok so when was this logo introduced ?

Re: Soviet naval aircraft type

Right now I do not remember exactly, but probably in 1943. I have to check. First they had the simple red star, then red star with black outline, then red star with white edge, finally white (silver) edge with a narrow red outline. Have to look into dates. Cheers,

Gabor

Re: Soviet naval aircraft type

köszönöm / bolschoy spasibah Gabor

Re: Soviet naval aircraft type

Surely a Pe-2 for the turret and the navigator's hatch. Besides Yak-4 had not a rounded rear fuselage, and it was of mixed construction as the Yak fighters.
Interesting detail, the unusual red stars over the wings. I've already seen a photo of a Pe-2 with these unusual stars, perhaps they were typical of some unit.
Regards
Massimo

Re: Soviet naval aircraft type

Maybe this will inspire you for a new painting

Re: Soviet naval aircraft type

Quote:

Originally Posted by researcher111 (Post 195293)

köszönöm / bolschoy spasibah Gabor

Please post in English unless you are quoting an original docment. If so, please source it.

Re: Soviet naval aircraft type

The post expressed thanks .

Re: Soviet naval aircraft type

Graham asked about this on Sovietwarplanes. Pe-2 for sure
http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/ind...93.0;topicseen
Note similar markings in this picture
http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/pe2/...ngstrip-43.jpg

Re: Soviet naval aircraft type

That's a nice find. Thanks.
Similarity is obvious. The wing bands appear yellow.

Re: Soviet naval aircraft type

Well, the white border red star became common by the end of 1942, while it co-existed for some months with the thin black border red star. Later the white border became very thick, especially on tail markings it was almost as wide as the small star itself. Silver borders (and occasionally some decorative yellow borders) are known too, but the white was the most common. The victory, or outline star (red star with wide white border and a thin red outline) was the main standard in 1944-45, in the final phase of the war. The fancy 'Kremlin star', ~3D type, shadowed star was also used on special planes, or guards units. But the bottom line is that this white border star on the Pe-2 in the picture was much later than 1941.

...and if we speak of markings... A very common error in Lavochkin La-5 and La-7 decals that they make factory applied white fuselage numbers with red outline! No, those large and white La-5 and La-7 tactical fuselage numbers, painted on still at the factories (as the last 2 digits of the aircraft serial numbers), so these white numbers had DARK BLUE border, or outline, NOT RED! Cheers,

Gabor

Re: Soviet naval aircraft type

Gabor, indeed, as I suspected earlier on it was this of 40 GvBAP Black Sea Fleet of the famous CO Ivan Korzunov during late 40's presumambly fished by Kriegsmarine sometime late October .
Attached few more photos of 40 GvBAP by mid 40's .Check the star design on upper starboard wing. On the fuselage " Za Borisa Safonova " remembering the famous pilot from the
Northern Naval Air Fleet Boris Safonov.

Re: Soviet naval aircraft type

Nice match, congrats!

Re: Soviet naval aircraft type

Thanks Gabor, before departing this topic there's something that popped up in my mind related to the PE-2 which I am not quite clear about namely the twin rocket launchers mounted on the PE-2 aft fuselage section .These rockets seems to have been designed for air to air rather air to ground and I wonder the accuracy , when was it introduced and were they installed the sighting for such bizare armament installation . Beyond any doubt the Russians had the most bizare and ingenious ideas in
WWII eventhough some of their designs didn't really work.

Re: Soviet naval aircraft type

Looks like just a 'psychological' defence weapon against fighter attacks from the back. Its main purpose could be to scare off the attacking fighters from the blind zone of the gunners. (Never researched weapon statistics though.)

Gabor

Re: Soviet naval aircraft type

Sounds fair to me , but the shape of this missile looks to me
closer to an air to ground ordnance which may have being tested
for aerodynamics rather used as decoy to scare off the Luftwaffe pilots.

Re: Soviet naval aircraft type

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dénes Bernád (Post 195355)

That's a nice find. Thanks.
Similarity is obvious. The wing bands appear yellow.

I would doubt yellow, as this was the axis identification colour, but the veteran quoted below says the 3rd squadron used yellow spinners, but the 2nd squadron used light blue, so maybe.
Be interesting if the bands were also squadron coded?

in this shot, also on Soviet warplanes
http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/pe2/...gostalina2.jpg

Quote:

Pe-2 series 205 of 40 GvBAP, Black Sea Fleet, in 1945. The slogan Za velikogo Stalina means for the Great Stalin, and has been seen on other planes of the same unit. Note the Guards emblem on the nose. The camouflage seems compatible with the 1st template, but the light look of the uppersurface of the wing let many doubts.

note the bands maybe even be the underside colour, compare to the undercarriage doors.
The use of Aluminium (silver) paint I think is more widespread than is thought. Note that both the P-39 and Yak-9 tailfin preserved in Finland have
aluminium outlined stars.

Also, the profile above, has the uppersurface a solid green.

This was not standard but has been mentioned here
http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/pe2/pe2camo/pe2camo.htm

If you scroll down to the Pe-2 GvBAP, Black Sea Fleet, in 1945. there are some more photos, and a mention that this maybe the case.

from this interview
http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/pilo...v/anisimov.htm
Note, there are many photos at the bottom of the link.

Quote:

— How your airplanes were painted?

White at winter, but it was not paint, it was something that could be easily washed away by water. At summer — green with yellowish spots. Mostly, one color green.
At the last month of war some planes came from the factories with green-green camouflage.

— Were there Pe-2s painted gray?

There were gray planes, just one color gray. But mostly we had green ones. Some dark green, some – light green. Very few planes had a camouflage.

— How effective was camouflage in the air?

Hard to say how effective it was… I didn’t think about it at the time… Sometimes, especially at foggy or cloudy weather we noticed that on final approach airplane would “melt” in the underlying terrain, but it was not a matter of camouflage. Single color plane was identical in this. At an altitude concealing paint did not work at all – planes were still visible.

— Were there paintings or insignias on the planes?

Yes. At the fuselages of Major Klochkos planes there was an insignia: «Leningrad». On the left side there was a picture of «Brass horseman», on the right — «Lenin on the armored car». It was painted this way because planes for this squadron were paid for by laborers of Leningrad. They came to our regiment and overpainted 9 planes that were ferried to the airbase by this time.

— Were there fast recognition elements on your planes?

Each squadron had special spinner color. At 1st — red, we in 2nd had light blue, 3rd — yellow.

It should also be noted that veteran pilots are not always the best people to ask about colour.

Quote:

...and if we speak of markings... A very common error in Lavochkin La-5 and La-7 decals that they make factory applied white fuselage numbers with red outline! No, those large and white La-5 and La-7 tactical fuselage numbers, painted on still at the factories (as the last 2 digits of the aircraft serial numbers), so these white numbers had DARK BLUE border, or outline, NOT RED! Cheers,

Gabor

http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/colo...s/1943-45.html

right at the bottom is the fragment of La-5FN with this painting

Quote:

Below, a detail of the bort number bears an interesting discovery: its outline was dark blue, and this was probably true for all late-style bort numbers on La5F, FN and La-7.

http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/colo...5fn-wreck2.jpg

This seems to be the only fragment of a Lavochkin fighter bort number, I don't know of any other evidence for the outline colour.

But Gabor is right about decals, they have red outlines.

There is a lot of discussion on VVS colours on the Soviet Warplanes site,
http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/colors/colors.html
best resource in English on the web AFAIK.

Hope of interest.

Re: Soviet naval aircraft type

Tony

Your assumptions are right ,regarding the spinners as well , though
I don't see on why people get stuck on details rather the history.

Re: Soviet naval aircraft type

Comming back to the historical relevance of this topic, would appreciate details regarding the crash site of this PE-2 of the same Polka such as location ( unable to ID the car )

Re: Soviet naval aircraft type

The most common answer is that people are interested in the details because they are required for modelling. More generally however, the history of the camouflage and the markings of aircraft are as much a part of history as the armament and use of the aircraft, and of considerable interest in themselves.

Re: Soviet naval aircraft type

Quote:

Originally Posted by researcher111 (Post 195458)

Tony

Your assumptions are right ,regarding the spinners as well , though
I don't see on why people get stuck on details rather the history.

I appreciate this site is more about history, but the 'details' are a modeller's perspective, to whom these details are important.
Interestingly many historian's are also modeller's,or at least interested in the modelling aspects, for example, John Beaman who posts here wrote modeller's guides back in the 1970's (Calling All Spitfires, Last of the Eagles, late mark Bf109's) and I see other writers posting on Britmodeller and Hyperscale, eg Dana Bell, Jim Maas, Chris Thomas.
Denes Bernad, whose posting in this thread, is one of the author's on Hungarian Fighter Colours. (Excellent books)

In Robert Mikesh (of the Smithsonian) book, Restoring Museum Aircraft, he makes the point that the people to ask about details of the correct camouflage and markings are modeller's!

In this case, the details of VVS camouflage and markings have been a controversial area due to misinformation and incorrect information being published.
see - http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1071.0
and - http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1351.0

Graham makes a similar point, and knowing these details can be useful for a historian by possibly giving a date, place and unit to a photograph from this information.

Re: Soviet naval aircraft type

Graham

I understand and I take note of your comments , thanks again

Re: Soviet naval aircraft type

Thanks, Troy, for your nice words regaridng the Hungarian Fighter Colours books. Indeed, camouflage and markings are integral part of aviation history, just as important as armament, for example, as Graham rightly pointed out.

Re: Soviet naval aircraft type

Originally Posted by Troy Smith : " Denes Bernad, whose posting in this thread, is one of the author's on Hungarian Fighter Colours. (Excellent books) "
=======================
Graham

My post was misunderstood and if you will take the time you will see what I was talking about .
Other than that everyone is entitled to have ,express and stick to his opinions, be a modeller , understand
or not the WWII Aviation history or you name it, and so do I .

PS : Troy, I see u're a new on here and yet you already campaign for a Romanian Hungarian book's author
which is fine, though this was little or not at all associated with this topic and had nothing to do with my posted
photos and remark ,period.