K.G.V Nightfighter combat losses 23/24 August 1943
 

After more than 10 years of pondering the question of whether there was or was not a friendly fire incident involving my late father-in-law, Laurie Bush of 418 Squadron I have spent further time recently trying to understand the movements and outcomes of the German and Allied squadrons on this night.

The Allied claims are all detailed in Intelligence Reports and ORB's on AIR 50 and AIR 27. there are limited details of the ME 410 losses on The Norwegian site detailed by Andreas Brekken on 12 O'clock High.

The RAF claims were:
Mack & Menlove 29 Sqn 23/8/43 23:22 hrs 40 miles east of Manston of from Dunkirk
Rad & Lovestad 85 Sqn 24/8/43 02:40 hrs Square G81 off East Anglia
Goodman & Backhouse 29 Sqn 24/8/43 - N/K but a significant time after 02:00 hrs, believed nr Dunkirk
Arbon & Ascroft 29 Sqn 24/8/43 03:33 hrs. 10 miles North of Knokke, Belgium


17th September 2007, 07:37
Andreas Brekken
Alter Hase

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Aurskog, Norway
Posts: 1,491

Re: Me 410 loss 23/24-8-1943
Hi.

The following Me 410 losses are registered by K.G.2 on 23rd and 24th August 1943:

23rd:

http://www.ahs.no/ref_db/lw_loss_pub...?lossid=118744 - brought down Chelmondiston Suffolk

http://www.ahs.no/ref_db/lw_loss_pub...?lossid=118745 - brought down 25 N.E. of Foreness

http://www.ahs.no/ref_db/lw_loss_pub...?lossid=118746 - non combat Epinoy

24th:

http://www.ahs.no/ref_db/lw_loss_pub...?lossid=118747 - non combat Vendeville

http://www.ahs.no/ref_db/lw_loss_pub...?lossid=118748

http://www.ahs.no/ref_db/lw_loss_pub...?lossid=118749

http://www.ahs.no/ref_db/lw_loss_pub...?lossid=112644


Regards,
Andreas B

I found further information on the Mossie.org site in the form of an excel file http://www.mossie.org/donated.../Mos...0Aircraft.xlsx , but the details therein are confused, incomplete and in places contradictory so could use an update !

1.) What would help enormously would be to have the take-off times and airfields flown from, of the German ME 410's lost that night. Are there equivalent records similar to ORB's of the RAF? It would seem so from the description given on aircrew remembered of Johan Oertel' last mission on 22 August 1943 from South of Lille with a time of take off given.

It seems to me that flying from Ford at 02:23 hrs on 24 Aug 1943 , Matheson & Bush flying at 360 mph would need 15 minutes to get to Criel, near Dieppe where their route was supposed to take them. I suppose if they had already abandoned the idea of flying that way because of a potential weather front (German weather maps of the area on 23/8/43 and 24/8/43 kindly supplied by Resmorah of RAFCommands) over central area of France they might have reached the area where the German losses took place, West of the coast of Northern France and Belgium in around 20 minutes but this would still miss the mark for the claims by Mackinnon & Menlove (23:22 on 23 Aug 43) and Rad & Lovestad (02:40 off the coast of East Anglia at G81 on 24 Aug 43).

This leaves the Allied claims of Goodman & Backhouse, 29 Squadron (time unclear estimated at round 02:45 but happy to be corrected on this) near Dunkirk and Arbon and Ashcroft, 29 Squadron, North of Knokke at 03:33 24 Aug 43.

Two of the three later German losses resulted in survivors being picked up.

2.) Are there any intelligence reports from these survivors or later testimony that narrows the time that they were shot down?

I suppose it is conceivable that Matheson and Bush shot down one of these and then fell to one of their own later. This might account for the difference in combat claim times of 03:00 hrs on one site and O3:33 hrs on another.

The only other explanation for these reports that I can think of is that another ME 410 was lost and misclassified - a check of the relevant German ORB equivalents should have established by now I should have thought so I discount this idea.

3.) One other observation I have noted during my scrutiny of the records available to me is a discrepancy in the description of the colour of the exhaust flames from the different Intelligence reports. Johan Rad seems to have made a very thorough examination of the plane in fornt of him before opening his attack and describes the outer exhausts as yellowish and the inner ones as whitish. The report of REX Mackinnon says that both sets of exahausts were very bright blue suggesting two different aircraft involved perhaps??.

That Mosquitos could be mistaken for ME 410's is not unheard of indeed a stricken mosquito is described as hot down over Brighton in mistake for the ME 410 that had plagued the city for the previous few days.

Any help on getting closer to an understanding of this night's events greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

Howard

Re: K.G.V Nightfighter combat losses 23/24 August 1943
 

1. I am afraid that such things did exist but are now rare. For KG 2 they do not exist. Of the logbooks I have, only one crew flew that night taking off from Vendeville at 0203 hrs on 23 Aug, landing 0434 hrs. The only other confirmed time is the crash at Chelmondiston on the early hours of 23 Aug 43 i.e 0201 hrs.
2. There were no survivors and the 2 picked up off Dunkirk were picked up by Germans on the morning of 25 Aug 43.
3. I cannot comment on exhausts but I was in touch with one RAF pilot who has asked to remain unknown who shot down a Mosquito having been told it was an Me 410.


There is confusion with the dates:
22-23 Aug Kirkland and Howitt; 2 German losses. 14 Me 410s involved

23-24 Aug Mack, Arbon, Goodman, Raad; 3 German losses


I stand by to be corrected if anyone else has more on these nights

Re: K.G.V Nightfighter combat losses 23/24 August 1943
 

There is a second claim for 22/23 Aug 43 noted in the confusion of the excel file and confirmed by the Intel report and ORB of 29 Squadron for Fl/Lt C Kirkland & P/O RC Raspin.
They took off from Bradwell Bay at 01:34 and landed at 03:40 on 23 Aug 43 presumed to have shot down Oertel and Kufner at circa 02:30 25 miles North East of Foreness.

Howard

Re: K.G.V Nightfighter combat losses 23/24 August 1943
 

I have listed Kirkland?

Re: K.G.V Nightfighter combat losses 23/24 August 1943
 

So you did Chris. Sorry about that . Anno domini and slow wits. Thanks for what you added. Best regards, Howard

Re: K.G.V Nightfighter combat losses 23/24 August 1943
 

Hello Howard,

According to Tony Wood's Victory Claims for the night of 23-24 August 1943:

S/Ldr. G.C. Matheson and Sgt L.W. Bush of 418 Sqn. were lost Cat.E in Mosquito F.II HJ773 on an intruder mission to Orleans. Their take-off time was 00.28 on 24 August 1943.

Mack and Menlove claimed a Me 410 at 23.15 on 23 August 1943 east of Manston in a Mosquito XII of 29 Sqn. They took off at 22.07 and landed at 00.13.

Rad and Lovestad claimed a Me 410 at 02.45 on 24 August 1943 off East Anglia in a Mosquito XII of 85 Sqn. They took off at 01.55 and landed at 03.20.

Goodman and Backhouse claimed a Me 410 at 02.50 on 24 August 1943 near Dunkirk in a Mosquito XII of 29 Sqn. They took off at 01.34 and landed at 03.23.

Arbon and Ashcroft claimed a Me 410 at 03.00 on 24 August 1943 10 sea miles north of Knokke in a Mosquito XII of 29 Sqn. They took off at 02.33 and landed at 03.53.

A fifth claim was made that night of a FW-190 at 01.45 on 24 August at Dunkirk by a Mosquito XII of 85 Sqn. It took off at 23.45 and landed at 02.25.

You will have to determine if this information is valid and relevant.

best regards,

Jim Geens

Re: K.G.V Nightfighter combat losses 23/24 August 1943
 

Hello Jim,

I had noted a discrepancy between Tony Woods take off time for Matheson and Bush and recently attempted to check whether this might have been a transcription error as I have given the time given on the 418 Squadron ORB. It appears that Tony Woods is no longer responding to queries regarding his database:-

Discrepancy between allied_1943_issue_I and ORB

Hello Howard --

Les passed your request on to me, but I'm afraid I can't help. Tony Woods got his data lists from the PRO. I can't guarantee that there were no transcription errors. Tony stopped responding to us 5-6 years ago. If you suspect the accuracy of the file, you'll have to go directly to the PRO, or whatever they call themselves these days. The file is quite likely on line by now, and downloading it won't require a trip to Kew.

Best regards, Don Caldwell

I note that one of my "suspects" was involved in another friendly fire incident in the same sort of area in 1944:

Identification: Friend or Foe: Death by Friendly Fire, Discovered Sixty-Two Years later.
By James MacLeod

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=...%20%22&f=false

There is a suggestion here that 'Friendly Fire' incidents, inevitable as they were, were 'covered up' by the squadrons affected.

All very interesting

Thanks for your posting, regards, Howard

Re: K.G.V Nightfighter combat losses 23/24 August 1943
 

Blue on Blue incidents are regarded as a very sensitive subject especicailly to relatives and yes, I have found evidence that they were 'hushed up' due to the effect on morale. Some incidents, like the bouncing of 609 Sqn by P-47s in Dec 43 which resulted in the deaths of the CO plus one and the damaging of another Typhoon, could never be hushed up due to the plethora of evidence and eye-witnesses

Re: K.G.V Nightfighter combat losses 23/24 August 1943
 

Actually the time I posted from the ORB is incorrect. The time in the ORB is 02:28 suggesting that the '2' was omitted in transcription by Tony Woods.

Re: K.G.V Nightfighter combat losses 23/24 August 1943
 

The only reference to German timings I could find was that Wilhelm Schmitter took off for this mission at 02.52 hrs German Time coming from the book 'Intruders Over Britain'. I assume this came from Schmitters logbook as a page from it has appeared online,

Regards
Brian bines

Re: K.G.V Nightfighter combat losses 23/24 August 1943
 

Thank you Brian for that. It sent me back to look at http://aufhimmelzuhause.com/id101.htm and that account of his mission on 23/24 August.

It would seem that the Lancaster that he shot down landed near Shouldham which is Cassini Grid Square approx G21 and I wondered if the Crash observed by Rad & Lovestad at G81 might have been that and not the ME410. Schmitter's account suggests that they were attacked near East Anglia and struggled to fly back towards their base at Gilze Rijen and not being shot down near Zeebrugge.

If the former were the case there would perhaps be two RAF claims for the same German loss and the fate of Matheson & Bush would once again be unknown.

I suppose at the back of my mind I am trying to determine where their earthly remains might have finished up. The question of a friendly fire option was never disclosed to the two surviving people in 2006/7 for whom it might have been upsetting. Viz Matheson's brother and Bush's widow.

Sometimes there just isn't an answer :-).

Kind regards,

Howard

Re: K.G.V Nightfighter combat losses 23/24 August 1943
 

Howard my only suggestions on this nights actions are , Rad claimed his victory at 02 40 hrs. while the attack on the Lancaster is given as around 03.00 hrs. with the bomber crashing at 03.19 hrs. . Rad claimed his victim either went down on land or at sea (combat report) by Shotley , while the ORB says down in the sea , he also reported one man baling out. Rad's claim may link to the loss of Ltn Helmut Barzel reported as missing while his Bf Uffz Hartmann was initially reported as missing but in GQM amendments dated 19-10-1943 he is shown as dead, body recovered ?
It would seem if Schmitter made the attack on the Lancaster at round 03.00 hrs he is likely to have fallen to S/L Arbon at 03.33 hrs. the other RAF claims being before 03.00 hrs. Schmitter and his Bf baled out but were unable to climb into their dinghies so fired off flares which were spotted by a Flak post at Zeebrugge and they were picked up.
As regards the other Luftwaffe loss Fw Werner Benner is reported as dying at Furnes ( Veurne ) Belgium on the 25th being buried at military cemetery at Lommel , while his Bf Uffz Reimers is missing but later declared dead . I assume this was a crash at sea off the Belgium coast with Benner being rescued or baling out wounded and drifting in over land , either falling to W/C Mack at 23.22hrs or F/L Goodwin at around 02.50hrs . In Mack’s combat report he noted the e/a had four very bright blue exhausts and was relying on its very high speed , Mack closing at around 360 mph. Goodwin was vectored onto an e/a which he followed on radar for 25 mins. Eventually he got a visual identified as a Me 410 approaching searchlights beacons by Dunkirk, the e/a flashed its downward recognition lights and the S/Ls were doused . The E/A was then at 800 feet he attacked and it crashed into the sea in flames.
RAF claims being W/C Mack at 23.22 hrs , W/C Cunningham an Fw 190 at 01.45hrs Uffz Lembach SKG 10 killed, Capt Rad at 02.40 hrs, F/L Goodman at around 02.50 hrs and S/L Arbon at 03.33 hrs . With S/L Matheson’s take off at 02.28hrs any possibility of a friendly fire incident would eliminate Mack and Cunnigham on time and Rad on location . Unfortunately the events of this night will be open to conjecture with only the Arbon claim as Schmitter looking confirmed , S/L Matheson would appear to have been lost in the Channel with no firm evidence of the cause .
The KG 2 history by Ulf Balke indicates V/KG2 were operating from Epinoy this night.

Re: K.G.V Nightfighter combat losses 23/24 August 1943
 

Very well summarized, thank you Brian.

I see now that Arbon and Ashcroft give the time of attack as 03:33 and Schmitter & Graeber of 15/KG 2 who flew from Epinoy that night and give the time of their crash as 03:37 so that seems very clear cut.

The Rad claim seems wrong somehow. They were under the Sandwich CHL which is further south and west than the Foreness CHL flying at Angels 25 and patrolling a vector of 110 degrees (Is this 20 degrees south of east ??) and put on a plane travelling north, so the G81 square reference looks wrong - with one airman baling out My best guess was this was Barzelt & Hartmann of 16/KG 2 who left south of Lille (Vendeville ?) at 01:20 (GMT presumed) to bomb an airfield south of Cambridge but it could equally have been Benner and Reimers also of 16/KG 2.

The claim by Mackinnon and Menlove at 23:22 on 23 Aug could not have been Barzelt and Hartmann, even allowing for the time of 01:20 being German time (00:20 GMT) This was before they had taken off ! There is no description of anyone getting out of the plane. This seems to imply that it was the only other German 410 lost that night - the one of Benner and Reimers.

So if there was a friendly fire incident that night it fell to either Rad and Lovestad or Goodman and Backhouse.

Neither Rad and Lovestad nor Goodman and Backhouse describe any parachutists leaving the planes they had struck - so nothing to distinguish between these two claims in terms of timing or survivors.

So both somewhere out from Dunkirk. Say No to dredging the Goodwin Sands !!!

Given the recent underwater survey off the Normandy beaches revealed 600 potential targets one struggles to imagine how many and what would show up if a similar survey was taken off Dunkirk.

Thanks to all the air historians whose research has helped us to understand and come to terms with these events.

Howard & Lorraine