K.G.V Nightfighter combat losses 23/24 August 1943

[Matheson]

After more than 10 years of pondering the question of whether there was or was not a friendly fire incident involving my late father-in-law, Laurie Bush of 418 Squadron I have spent further time recently trying to understand the movements and outcomes of the German and Allied squadrons on this night.

The Allied claims are all detailed in Intelligence Reports and ORB's on AIR 50 and AIR 27. there are limited details of the ME 410 losses on The Norwegian site detailed by Andreas Brekken on 12 O'clock High.

The RAF claims were:
Mack & Menlove 29 Sqn 23/8/43 23:22 hrs 40 miles east of Manston of from Dunkirk
Rad & Lovestad 85 Sqn 24/8/43 02:40 hrs Square G81 off East Anglia
Goodman & Backhouse 29 Sqn 24/8/43 - N/K but a significant time after 02:00 hrs, believed nr Dunkirk
Arbon & Ascroft 29 Sqn 24/8/43 03:33 hrs. 10 miles North of Knokke, Belgium


17th September 2007, 07:37
Andreas Brekken
Alter Hase

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Aurskog, Norway
Posts: 1,491

Re: Me 410 loss 23/24-8-1943
Hi.

The following Me 410 losses are registered by K.G.2 on 23rd and 24th August 1943:

23rd:

http://www.ahs.no/ref_db/lw_loss_pub...?lossid=118744 - brought down Chelmondiston Suffolk

http://www.ahs.no/ref_db/lw_loss_pub...?lossid=118745 - brought down 25 N.E. of Foreness

http://www.ahs.no/ref_db/lw_loss_pub...?lossid=118746 - non combat Epinoy

24th:

http://www.ahs.no/ref_db/lw_loss_pub...?lossid=118747 - non combat Vendeville

http://www.ahs.no/ref_db/lw_loss_pub...?lossid=118748

http://www.ahs.no/ref_db/lw_loss_pub...?lossid=118749

http://www.ahs.no/ref_db/lw_loss_pub...?lossid=112644


Regards,
Andreas B

I found further information on the Mossie.org site in the form of an excel file http://www.mossie.org/donated.../Mos...0Aircraft.xlsx , but the details therein are confused, incomplete and in places contradictory so could use an update !

1.) What would help enormously would be to have the take-off times and airfields flown from, of the German ME 410's lost that night. Are there equivalent records similar to ORB's of the RAF? It would seem so from the description given on aircrew remembered of Johan Oertel' last mission on 22 August 1943 from South of Lille with a time of take off given.

It seems to me that flying from Ford at 02:23 hrs on 24 Aug 1943 , Matheson & Bush flying at 360 mph would need 15 minutes to get to Criel, near Dieppe where their route was supposed to take them. I suppose if they had already abandoned the idea of flying that way because of a potential weather front (German weather maps of the area on 23/8/43 and 24/8/43 kindly supplied by Resmorah of RAFCommands) over central area of France they might have reached the area where the German losses took place, West of the coast of Northern France and Belgium in around 20 minutes but this would still miss the mark for the claims by Mackinnon & Menlove (23:22 on 23 Aug 43) and Rad & Lovestad (02:40 off the coast of East Anglia at G81 on 24 Aug 43).

This leaves the Allied claims of Goodman & Backhouse, 29 Squadron (time unclear estimated at round 02:45 but happy to be corrected on this) near Dunkirk and Arbon and Ashcroft, 29 Squadron, North of Knokke at 03:33 24 Aug 43.

Two of the three later German losses resulted in survivors being picked up.

2.) Are there any intelligence reports from these survivors or later testimony that narrows the time that they were shot down?

I suppose it is conceivable that Matheson and Bush shot down one of these and then fell to one of their own later. This might account for the difference in combat claim times of 03:00 hrs on one site and O3:33 hrs on another.

The only other explanation for these reports that I can think of is that another ME 410 was lost and misclassified - a check of the relevant German ORB equivalents should have established by now I should have thought so I discount this idea.

3.) One other observation I have noted during my scrutiny of the records available to me is a discrepancy in the description of the colour of the exhaust flames from the different Intelligence reports. Johan Rad seems to have made a very thorough examination of the plane in fornt of him before opening his attack and describes the outer exhausts as yellowish and the inner ones as whitish. The report of REX Mackinnon says that both sets of exahausts were very bright blue suggesting two different aircraft involved perhaps??.

That Mosquitos could be mistaken for ME 410's is not unheard of indeed a stricken mosquito is described as hot down over Brighton in mistake for the ME 410 that had plagued the city for the previous few days.

Any help on getting closer to an understanding of this night's events greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

Howard