Bf109 G or K?
 

Hi
Is this 109 G-10 or K-4?

http://img105.imageshack.us/img105/4403/calxw9r0yb0.jpg

Re: Bf109 G or K?
 

Looks like an Erla-built G-10

Re: Bf109 G or K?
 

For me looks more like an G - 14 ... I miss the oil piping to vapour seperator typical for DB 605D (or isn't to see?) and there is the light quarter near the windshield (from the MG - bulge).

Best wishes
Rasmussen

Re: Bf109 G or K?
 

It is certainly a G-14 model.
It has the Db 605A-1 oil cooler.(carry by the G-14)
It has the external bulge of the MG 131 gun's in the engine.
It has the Fug 16ZY antena on the left wing that diferent it from the G-6 models.
and it does not have the Db603 super charger that diferent it from the
AS models.
The G-10 and K-4 models has Db605D engine with a bigger oil cooler.It is not the case of this photo.


Eduardo.

Re: Bf109 G or K?
 

AFAIK, there were G-6s with FuG 16ZY antenna fitted.

Re: Bf109 G or K?
 

I am quite sure that all G-6 carry the antena at the botton of the central
fuselage.This photo also shows the wooden ruder(sharpe angle at the botton), a feature introduce later in the war.The AS models carry a diferente type of ruder(with a round corner at the botton)

Eduardo.

Re: Bf109 G or K?
 

Hello Eduardo,

Denes is right. In the Radinger/ Schick - book, volume 2, on page 95 is published a pic of an G - 6 (clear to identfy) with the FuG 16ZY antenna under the left wing.

Best wishes
Rasmussen

Re: Bf109 G or K?
 

Perhaps, but how many G-6s have the broad fairings for the main U/c wheels?

Re: Bf109 G or K?
 

Hi George,
I might have missed something, it's a long time since I studied the Bf 109, but the only versions I can recall with the upper wing bulges made to accomodate the larger main wheels were the G-6AS, G-14AS, G-10 and K-4. This one has a short tail wheel, but it is hard to tell if it has a tall rudder. The short tail wheel should rule out the K-4, and the oil cooler seems too shallow for a G-10. So I think it's a G-6AS or G-14AS.
bregds
SES

Re: Bf109 G or K?
 

It can´t be an "AS "plane .
You can cleary see the shade of the painting near the cockpit showing the MG 131 bulge. It is a feature of an old engine hood and not the hood
carry by the "AS" conversion set.
Adicionaly, this plane has a wooden tailplane(sharp angle at the botton of the ruder).This type of ruder was introduced later in war.By that time the
Me109G-6 was not built anymore.
I still beleave that the Fug16ZY antenna in the left wing was an old feature carry by the G-14 and other late models.The fact that there was
a unic photo showing the opposit in an ocean of millions of other photos did not prove anything.It could be a G-6 structure with an knew wing(G-14 wing)that uses the antenna in the wing.

Eduardo.

Re: Bf109 G or K?
 

Well, the 109 G-6 was certainly being built by Regensburg and Erla in Nov 44, so a few may have been built into 1945. So, the time period of G-6 production doesn't rule out a wooden tail.

But, with the main evidence of the photo: Large wheel fairings on the wing that would indicate a G-10 or K-4; but with the obvious "Beule" of the earlier a/c series, I would agree with Eduardo, that it is a 109 G-14.

Re: Bf109 G or K?
 

Did not the K-4 get rid of the radio mast. Some G-10s did and some didn't.

The oil cooler seems too deep for a G-6, G-14.

It has to have the long tail strut. If it had the short strut the rudder base would be hiden in the long grass.

Would say it is a G-10.

Re: Bf109 G or K?
 

The problem with anything other than the G-14 is that you can see the unpainted fuselage over which the lower rear part of the "Beule" was positioned. The G-10 would have had the rear panel for the refined cowling, not the round bubble of the Beule.

Re: Bf109 G or K?
 

I think i'ts a Erla-built G-14. Photo isn't of the best quality, but fortunatelly something is still visible.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y14...a/12d8568e.jpg

The presence of PR 16 loop antena [4] just behind the canopy eliminates a K-4 subtype.
The plane has DB 605 A-serie engine. The pipe leading to the oil vapour separator comin' through right engine bearer [1] as well as cold start push-pump button located below the bearer on a metal strip [6] eliminates D-serie Motor.
Lack of the redesigned cowling bulges as well as unpainted area [2], where MG 131 bulges were located eliminates the AS engine too.
This plane has Fo 870 oil cooler, not a deeper 987 one [7]. One can see it's more "square" lower shape. This Gustav has older type of prop, not a wider one for G-10, G-14/AS or K-4 [8].
As I can recognise in this blurry photo, there's a battery-box aft the armour plate in cockpit - the sign that aircraft has a MW system instaled [3]. There is also a blurred dot, that looks like Erla-style MW-50 stencil on the right fuselage side.
The tail wheel leg is tall one [unmarked arrow :) ] and the AC tires are bigger, 660x190 ones with large bulges on the wing [5].
This feautures are quite common for a late Erla G-14.
Wish I could see the oil tank. I bet it's bigger, 56l. one...

:)

Re: Bf109 G or K?
 

...from the 465 xxx - batch :) .

Re: Bf109 G or K?
 

Not "official" ... the last "stamped" G - 6 left the factory in July/ August.

Best wishes
Rasmussen

Re: Bf109 G or K?
 

I agree with Mr Rasmussen and Mr Kuba Plewka.
For me this plane is a Me 109 G-14y
with Db 605 AM engine with MW 50.
Large main wheel and tall tail wheel (660x190).
Wooden tailfin.
C-3 type fuel.
Fug 16ZY (comand aircraft)
Buit by Erla (Nov/Dez) 1944 from the batch of 465...

Eduardo.

Re: Bf109 G or K?
 

Not built in November/ December 1944 but February/March 1945 ...

Re: Bf109 G or K?
 

Dear Rasmussen,

I am not certain where you got information on last G-6 production, but the C-AMT Monatsmeldung and other production related documents I have seen show G-6 NEUBAU production running through February 1945.

Best regards,

Artie Bob

Re: Bf109 G or K?
 

Sorry about my mistake Rasmussen.
You are right.
The 465xxx batch started at Feb 1945.

Eduardo Arana.

Re: Bf109 G or K?
 

Hello Artie Bob,

all internal documents doesn't mentioned an G - 6 serieal production after August 1944 .... for example "Programm 226/2" from 20.09.1944, "Programm 227/1" from 15.12.1944 with information from 13.12.1944 about really produced a/c's (the number of G - 6 is equal with number from end of June 1944) and a lot of other original documents.

I believe the G - 6 mentioned by C - Amt were the G - 14 delivered without MW 50 - system. From technical view these a/c's indeed were G - 6 but the prices were different. Erla sold this "G - 6" as G - 14 to RLM, stamped the ID plates with G - 14 and registered these a/c's in the documents as G - 14. Erla had signed an contract about delivery of G - 14 and Erla was sold for G - 14 ... The C - Amt registered the technical reality but this doesn't mean it was an "official" G - 6 NEUBAU production by Erla.

Best regards
Rasmussen

Re: Bf109 G or K?
 

All very interesting. I notice that Regensburg noted in its production plans/deliveries report for 4.9.1944 the planned production of 2403 G-14s of which 835 would be G-14s, 200 would be G-14s without MW 50, and 1368 would be G-14ASs.

Slightly off topic, but why would they building G-14s without the MW 50 installation?

Re: Bf109 G or K?
 

I just wanted to ask that... perhaps rebuilds of G-6s? But for what, without boost, at that date...?

Perhaps it is with the intent to deliver these MW-less a/c to conversion centers, to be finished as other a/c, say recce G-8s? MW placement was different there, so it would faciliate things...

Re: Bf109 G or K?
 

It's possible they did not get the MW-50 tanks in time for assembly, rather than letting the output dry down because of a missing part they probably chose to let the G-14s out w/o the tank.

Re: Bf109 G or K?
 

I´ve just seen a photo of a G-14 showing the serial number (464463) that
carries a 87 type fuel stamped on the fuselage which indicates a Db 605 A-1 engine without the MW-50.
Unless it was an AS model; I cant identify the engine cooling.
Was there any "AS" models within this block?


Eduardo Arana.

Re: Bf109 G or K?
 

Thank you, Kurfürst and Olivier, for your comments on the MW 50-less G-14s.

Re: Bf109 G or K?
 

Nope,
DB605AM/ASM were also cleared for B4+MW-50.

Olivier

Re: Bf109 G or K?
 

Well
Accordanly with Mercedes-Benz AG , Archives , Stuttgard in Germany
Db 605 A-1 uses B4 type fuel
Db 605 AM uses C3 + MW 50
Db 605 ASM uses C3+ MW 50
Db 605 AS uses B4 type fuel.

Eduardo.

Re: Bf109 G or K?
 

According to several MW-50 documents as well as technical documents pertaining to AM and ASM engine both were cleared for use with B4 after an initial introduction with C3 as the only supported fuel.
Use of B4 instead of C3 was risky in case of a sudden drop of MW-50 injection, the effect being a blown engine due to B4 knocking at such pressures. That was the only restriction as listed in the manuals.
PM me if you need more details.

Re: Bf109 G or K?
 

Sorry to intervene this late, but, speaking of the "MW 50-less G-14s", it may be of interest to note that several were flown by the ANR's 2° Gruppo Caccia.

In fact, the personal agenda of Magg. Bellagambi (CO of 5a Sq. "Diavoli Rossi") had the following G-14s reported as being devoid of "methanol" boost:

W.Nr.464380
W.Nr.464430
W.Nr.464446
W.Nr.464456
W.Nr.464464

As a sidenote, the following one was the only 464xxx aircraft with the MW-50 in the Squadriglia on March 1945:

W.Nr.464480

Hope this helps.

Re: Bf109 G or K?
 

Hello Ferdinando,

many thanks for your reply (my copy of your newest book is in my second flat -- it's an wonderful book). So my question: Were these a/c's reported as "G - 14" in other documents? IIRC he doesn't mentioned an version in his agenda.

Best wishes to you and your family
Jörg

Re: Bf109 G or K?
 

In case it helps: a list of thirteen Bf 109 G-14s taken over by I./JG 4 from Erla Leipzig on 18 and 19 October 1944. Eleven of them are 464... series aircraft.

(The original document was very faint, so I've had to do a lot of computer adjustment to make it readable)

Re: Bf109 G or K?
 

Fantastic stuff, Nick!

Jörg, thanks for your kind words. Now you can see why with Nick we did an excellent job years ago... still a great team, IMHO... :)

Re: Bf109 G or K?
 

I agree Ferdinando. It helped to find out 2 little mistakes in my documents and it seems to confirm my conclusion that Erla sold G - 14's (relating original documents independent from technical equipments) and RLM registered the "special" G - 14's (without MW 50) as G - 6 (relating original documents from Artie Bob).

an small addition: all a/c's were brandnew ... accepted by BAL one or two days before were send to JG 4 (independent from the W.Nr.)

@Nick Beale

My English is very limited so my question: means "equipment sets: lacking" that the MW 50 - System was lacking?

Best wishes and many thanks
Jörg

Re: Bf109 G or K?
 

That would be my guess too, but only a guess. Elsewhere, when III./JG 53 reported some aircraft lacking radios, they specifically said radios - they did not call those just "equipment."

Re: Bf109 G or K?
 

Maybe from interest for you:

from an FS (= Fernschreiben) by technical director of Erla - Leipzig, Waldemar Schellhorn, to Mtt. Regensburg

date: 18.October 1944

"In diesem Monat haben wir die G - 14 als Schulmaschine ohne MW 50 - Anlage zu liefern und diese können Sie nicht gebrauchen."
(my translation: "In this month we have to delivere the G - 14 as trainer without MW 50 - system and this a/c isn't right for you.")

Best wishes
Rasmussen

Re: Bf109 G or K?
 

That is interesting but the German grammar doesn't seem right to me. Shouldn't it be "…und diese können Sie nicht brauchen"? = "and this you cannot need."

Even then it's an odd thing to say. I'd have expected either "…und diese brauchen Sie nicht" (= and this you do not need) or perhaps "sollen Sie nicht brauchen" (= you should not need).

Re: Bf109 G or K?
 

No, it's correct ...as German native speaker I can confirm that the formulation " ... und diese können Sie nicht gebrauchen." is in common use. This formulation indicate an guess about an fact. Your second version "... und diese brauchen Sie nicht." indicate an fact (my knowledge about your need). The difference between both versions isn't great and often in indentical use. Your third version "... und sollen Sie nicht gebrauchen." is an direct order.

Best wishes
Rasmussen

Re: Bf109 G or K?
 

Thanks Rasmussen.

I only learned the kind of German that enabled you to pass examinations in the English education system, not the sort Germans actually use. They certainly didn't teach us German words like "Look", "Team" and "Fitness" that one sees now!

I was doubtful because to say in English "you cannot need this" usually implies surprise that someone has asked for the item.

Re: Bf109 G or K?
 

It´s interesting to see, that even in Jan 1945 64 G-6 were delivered by Erla, together with 103 G-10, 269 G-10/R6 and 78 G-14.
Messerschmitt had only 1 G-6, 3 G-10, 1 G-14, 211 G-14/AS and 338 K-4.
I did not expect to see this amount of aircraft delivered in this stage of war.

Dirk