One Loss at Eastern Front Werknummer 10438
 

Some questions of LW-losses found at russian website.

http://www.bf109.ru/bf109g2.htm
http://www.bf109.ru/10438/dataplate.jpg

First an 109G2 Werknummer 10438. According to the source, this airplane belonged to 7./JG-54 flown by Leutnant Deege (Doege). Although i can find Lt. Deege in loss lists of JG-54 (excel-table), it states Werknummer 10423. Indeed this was Stöber seem to be shot down in the same dogfight (Blaue 1). Also the dates are different. Russians source stated 13.1 and Loss table 15.1.43.

If you look at http://www.ww2.dk/oob/bestand/jagd/biiijg54.html there is no loss stated for whole January 1943. In February this Group already flew 109G4.
III/JG-54 loss list states 5 times 100% losses and 3 times between 60 and 99% for III/JG54 January 1943.

What's wrong? Did i made a mistake?

Missing Flugzeugbewegungen
 

Jens,

among the losses reported in January 1943 from III./JG 54 are at least three aircraft with blue tactical codes which is very unusal. To my knowledge on the Ostfront blue serials were not in use prior to 1945 (with the exception of those mentioned above) and III./JG 54 certainly had the usual Black/White/Yellow set of colors in 1942/43.

This is a hint, that the a/c were not part of the outfit of III./JG 54 any more (in spite of some of these a/c were damaged when serving with this Gruppe in 1942). III./JG 54 was scheduled to leave for the Westfront late 1942 in exchange for I/JG 26. The departure was delayed untill mid February 1943, when the Gruppe arrived in the West with newly delivered Bf 109 G-4s. Perhaps the Gruppe had handed over their old a/c in Dezember 1942 to another Gruppe or a feldluftpark in preparation for their relocation and was forced to use them in January 1943 due to their delayed departure. Officially the birds were not in the inventory of III./JG 54 and so they do not show in the "Flugzeugbewegungslisten" (nevertheless the Quartiermeistermeldungen and NVM were filed). A theory only, but it would explain the gap in the Bewegungsmeldungen.

BTW: NVM is 15.1. 43 which is backed up by a report from ground-forces.

Carl

http://www.messerschmitt-bf109.de/ph...hp?flugzeug=87

My 2 cents...

Interesting up to how much % losses were filed in the "Flugzeugbewegungslisten"?

Losses of III./JG 54 January 1943
 

Hi.

III./JG 54 reported a total of 10 aircraft lost in January of 1943, and I find it very strange that none are showing in the Bewegungsmeldungen.

Three possible reasons:

Typo by Michael, typo by the clerks making up the original reports, or insufficient reports by the unit (the latter may be the most probable), especially since there are no changes (29 aircraft first date in the month, 29 given to another unit, 0 at last date of the month.) Since they reported the loss of 8 aircraft total (more than 50%) and 2 aircraft damaged (below 50%), where did these 10 come from?

I do not have the original documents for the Bewegungsmeldungen for JG 54, so I cannot check these, maybe someone can?

Have checked the Summarische Verlustemeldungen for the unit in January 1943, pls see screenshots from my database at the following locations for Personal and Flugzeuge.

Regards,
Andreas

Bf 109G-2 WNr. 10 438 and Blaue Kennzeichen
 

Servus Charles Bavaroise!

I have read your comments regarding the loss of Bf 109G-2, III./JG 54 aircraft in January 1943, and blue Truppenkennzeichen. Charles, I cannot explain the discrepancies in aircraft inventory reports for III./JG 54 in January 1943, but I can say for certain that 7./JG 54 applied BLUE Tr.KZ to at least some of its aircraft (Bf 109F-4s) as early as the spring of 1942. I have contempory color photographs from the collection of Werner Pichon-Kalau vom Hofe, Oblt. u. Stkp. 7./JG 54 up to ca. June 1942, clearly showing blue Tr.KZ and various unit emblems (Grünherz, "Flying Clog," usw.) applied to 7. Staffel machines during ca. March 1942 [sic].

These photographs, in addition to various loss and casualty reports, unquestionably document that at least some 7./JG 54 aircraft bore BLUE Tr.KZ as early as the late spring of 1942 [sic]. I further believe that during 1942 some lost or damaged aircraft from 7. Staffel that had blue numbers were actually REPORTED as having WHITE numbers. White was the authorized and usual color for the 7. Staffel, of course, as you know, and I suspect that unit clerks sometimes simply wrote the usual "white" instead of the actual "blue." I do not think the substitution of blue for white numbers was universal in the 7. Staffel, but I'm absolutely sure that blue numbers could be found on some of the unit's Bf 109F-4s and Bf 109G-2s.

There is also black-and-white photographic evidence (from ca. August-September 1942) that 7./JG 54 applied blue numbers on the first Bf 109G-2s that it received. For example, see the widely published official photograph said at Siverskaya, USSR, in the summer of 1942 showing a Bf 109G-2 marked 10 + ~ of 7./JG 54 in company with a Stab III./JG 54 Bf 109G-2 marked <I + ~ . Comparison of the white Stab markings with the tone of the "10" clearly shows that the "10" and the "~" must be blue and not white.

A little off the track, but I believe that the reason for the blue Tr.KZ is obvious: white tactical numbers simply did not show up adequately against white upper surface camouflage paint.

Best wishes!

RA

The mystery of WNr. 10438
 

First off, I agree with Rabe as to the use of blue codes on 7./JG 54 machines - in fact, if I recall correctly, there is at least one color photograph of a 7./JG 54 machine in winter camo with a blue code in the Schiffer reprint of the Barbas' 'Aircraft of the LW Aces' volumes - though as I'm currently rearranging my home office/library I have no bloody idea where those books are located at the moment to exactly quote the source.

As to WNr. 10438, this machine was listed in the GQM reports at least 3 times:

Bf 109G-2 10434 OSTERMANN, Oblt. Max-Hellmuth 102 8. JG 54 09-Aug-42 Stkp. KIA in Luftkampf. S; Original entry says 10434 -replaced by 10438, is this correct? Ostfront Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #6)-Vol.10; Obermaier p 31 Pl.Qu. 29523 - Ammosovo (150km S of Lake Ilmen) 100% F

(the published loss of Ostermann in Obermaier shows WNr. 10438 - given its subsequent showings the original 10434 is probably correct!)

Bf 109G-2 10438 Wübke, Oblt. Waldemar 15~ 7. JG 54 09-Sep-42 Stkp. WIA due to enemy fighters. Ostfront Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #9)-Vol.16 Fl.Pl. Mga 15% F

And of course:

Bf 109G-2 10438 Stöber, Fw. Kurt 36 7. JG 54 blaue 1 + ^^ blue nos. used at this time by 7./JG 54. 15-Jan-43 POW, cause unknown. FSA. DK Ostfront Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #8)-Vol.13; Rosipal JG 54 loss list (Welikije-Luki) 100% F

Which is now apparent was the machine flown by Doege. The recorded loss is:
Bf 109G-2 10423 Doege, Ltn. Alfred 7. JG 54 blaue 10 + ^^ 15-Jan-43 MIA after Luftkampf. Ostfront Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #8)-Vol.13; Rosipal JG 54 loss list (Welikije-Luki) 100% F

So were the Doege/Stober losses reversed??

IIRC both were flying the sortie together and both were shot down in the same combat over Vera Luki. There was some debate on the old board as to whether they had swapped machines prior to the sortie.

Dave

Blue tactical codes
 

Hello Anton Rabe and Servus,

great info :D ! I did not know about blue tactical codes with 7/JG 54 and also do not know the fotos you and Jim P. mentioned, as I only have the German publications of Barbas. The German video from Traditionsverband Grünherz has some very exciting colored sequels, but the only a/c I can conect to 7./JG 54 is a brown/green camouflaged G-2 with white (!) tactical code 2+~. This is one of the great benefits of this board - you can learn a lot only watching what other people contribute :wink:

Nevertheless those blue codes remain strange. The loss-reports of 7th Staffel have white codes from 1940 onwards well into 1944 and there is ample fotographical proof for white codes. This is especially true for the new brown/green G-2s with Gondelwaffen in summer of 1942. As you said: perhaps they used the blue codes only on white winter-camo.

Carl

10438
 

Is it possible for me to restore original paint scheme for 10438?
May be some photos of the 10438 exists made in winter 1943?

Something happened in III./JG 54 after loss of Wübke etc
 

Hi, guys.

Something definitely happened in this unit around this time.

I am not an expert on JG 54 or their operational history, but it is clear to me that something happened around September 1942 that affected their reporting to the GenQu. Note the long timespan from date fo the accident until date of the report, for Wübke about a half year!!

I have made available data from additional entries of the Summarische Verlustemeldungen from the unit, pls see the following screenshots:

Summarische Verluste Personal

Summarische Verluste Flugzeuge


Thus in my opinion, we should be vary careful and not take the reports for this period as 'the truth', and mark the corresponding entries in our databases and documents as 'questionable'.

As both Ostermann and Wübke was unit leaders, the fact that both were out of commission after these dates, this might explain the 'errors' in the reporting if they in fact themselves used to file the reports to the Gruppenkommandeur. It also looks like Arnold Lignitz left the unit late September (I haven't checked how he did this.... transferred or WIA/KIA), but the arrival of a new Gruppenkommandeur and loss of several unit leaders could explain the 'mess' they made of their reporting at the time.

The losses we are talking about are listed here:

09.08.1942 WNr 10434
09.09.1942 WNr 10438
15.01.1943 WNr 10423
15.01.1943 WNr 10438



If anyone of You have NVM's from the unit during this period, it would be interesting to know who signed them!


Regards,
Andreas

10438
 

As I saw the process of recovering by my eyes from the beginning to the end I'd like to clear some interesting details.

1. I have a talk with a very old man in a village near crash place.
He said me that there was a fight 15.01.43 between one Bf-109 and 2 Yaks.
At first the german brought down the first Yak-1. (The Yak was fallen right near Bf-109's crash place) And then the other Yak-1 brought down the german Bf-109. And the Bf-109 crashed (almost vertical dive) with loud howl!!

2. There are 2 :) digits in vertical stabilizer remain.
The first one - 10431.
The second - 10438

3. The old man said me that KGB was very curious by this Bf-109 in early 50's. But they can't to get the plane from the depth of 11 meters.

4. It's clear for me that it was Alfred Deege in this plane. There was a letter with his name at the pocket of pilot's jacket.

Re: 10438
 

What i've found from JG-54 loss list, 10431 was flown by Uffz. Rudolf Fischer-Bütow and was shot down by LK at 29.10.1942, near Demjansk/Jerschino (100% loss). Unit was IIIStab/JG-54, pilot status MIA maybe POW?. I believe you, but why there are to numbers at the stabilizer?

Hi

Hptm. Arnold Liegnitz was shot down by a rocket from a J 153 over Leningrad at 30. September 1941. He baled out and was POW, later he died in a Jail. The loss from Liegnitz was signed from Hptm. Seiler at 02. Oktober 1941.

The loss from Ostermann was also signed from Seiler at 11. August 1942. The last loss which was signed from Hptm. Seiler (12. November 1942) was Lt. Heyer 09. November 1942.

The losses from Lt. Doege and Fw. Stöber was signed from Oblt. Bob, stellvertretender Führer der Jagdgruppe, at the 19. Januar 1943.

The first signature from Major Seiler (04. März 1943) was Uffz. Twelkemeyer, he was killed at the 26. Februar 1943 between Huquelliers and Manighem.

Christian

-
 

I suppose that the vertical stabilizer was put after repairing. Repairman took a tail of 10431, repair it and put into 10438. It's my IMHO.