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  #1  
Old 29th December 2004, 18:26
Jens Jens is offline
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One Loss at Eastern Front Werknummer 10438

Some questions of LW-losses found at russian website.

http://www.bf109.ru/bf109g2.htm
http://www.bf109.ru/10438/dataplate.jpg

First an 109G2 Werknummer 10438. According to the source, this airplane belonged to 7./JG-54 flown by Leutnant Deege (Doege). Although i can find Lt. Deege in loss lists of JG-54 (excel-table), it states Werknummer 10423. Indeed this was Stöber seem to be shot down in the same dogfight (Blaue 1). Also the dates are different. Russians source stated 13.1 and Loss table 15.1.43.

If you look at http://www.ww2.dk/oob/bestand/jagd/biiijg54.html there is no loss stated for whole January 1943. In February this Group already flew 109G4.
III/JG-54 loss list states 5 times 100% losses and 3 times between 60 and 99% for III/JG54 January 1943.

What's wrong? Did i made a mistake?
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  #2  
Old 29th December 2004, 20:30
Charles Bavarois Charles Bavarois is offline
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Missing Flugzeugbewegungen

Jens,

among the losses reported in January 1943 from III./JG 54 are at least three aircraft with blue tactical codes which is very unusal. To my knowledge on the Ostfront blue serials were not in use prior to 1945 (with the exception of those mentioned above) and III./JG 54 certainly had the usual Black/White/Yellow set of colors in 1942/43.

This is a hint, that the a/c were not part of the outfit of III./JG 54 any more (in spite of some of these a/c were damaged when serving with this Gruppe in 1942). III./JG 54 was scheduled to leave for the Westfront late 1942 in exchange for I/JG 26. The departure was delayed untill mid February 1943, when the Gruppe arrived in the West with newly delivered Bf 109 G-4s. Perhaps the Gruppe had handed over their old a/c in Dezember 1942 to another Gruppe or a feldluftpark in preparation for their relocation and was forced to use them in January 1943 due to their delayed departure. Officially the birds were not in the inventory of III./JG 54 and so they do not show in the "Flugzeugbewegungslisten" (nevertheless the Quartiermeistermeldungen and NVM were filed). A theory only, but it would explain the gap in the Bewegungsmeldungen.

BTW: NVM is 15.1. 43 which is backed up by a report from ground-forces.

Carl
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  #3  
Old 29th December 2004, 21:44
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Falcon Falcon is offline
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http://www.messerschmitt-bf109.de/ph...hp?flugzeug=87

My 2 cents...
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  #4  
Old 30th December 2004, 12:25
Jens Jens is offline
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Interesting up to how much % losses were filed in the "Flugzeugbewegungslisten"?
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  #5  
Old 30th December 2004, 12:34
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Andreas Brekken Andreas Brekken is offline
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Losses of III./JG 54 January 1943

Hi.

III./JG 54 reported a total of 10 aircraft lost in January of 1943, and I find it very strange that none are showing in the Bewegungsmeldungen.

Three possible reasons:

Typo by Michael, typo by the clerks making up the original reports, or insufficient reports by the unit (the latter may be the most probable), especially since there are no changes (29 aircraft first date in the month, 29 given to another unit, 0 at last date of the month.) Since they reported the loss of 8 aircraft total (more than 50%) and 2 aircraft damaged (below 50%), where did these 10 come from?

I do not have the original documents for the Bewegungsmeldungen for JG 54, so I cannot check these, maybe someone can?

Have checked the Summarische Verlustemeldungen for the unit in January 1943, pls see screenshots from my database at the following locations for Personal and Flugzeuge.

Regards,
Andreas
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  #6  
Old 30th December 2004, 15:12
Rabe Anton Rabe Anton is offline
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Bf 109G-2 WNr. 10 438 and Blaue Kennzeichen

Servus Charles Bavaroise!

I have read your comments regarding the loss of Bf 109G-2, III./JG 54 aircraft in January 1943, and blue Truppenkennzeichen. Charles, I cannot explain the discrepancies in aircraft inventory reports for III./JG 54 in January 1943, but I can say for certain that 7./JG 54 applied BLUE Tr.KZ to at least some of its aircraft (Bf 109F-4s) as early as the spring of 1942. I have contempory color photographs from the collection of Werner Pichon-Kalau vom Hofe, Oblt. u. Stkp. 7./JG 54 up to ca. June 1942, clearly showing blue Tr.KZ and various unit emblems (Grünherz, "Flying Clog," usw.) applied to 7. Staffel machines during ca. March 1942 [sic].

These photographs, in addition to various loss and casualty reports, unquestionably document that at least some 7./JG 54 aircraft bore BLUE Tr.KZ as early as the late spring of 1942 [sic]. I further believe that during 1942 some lost or damaged aircraft from 7. Staffel that had blue numbers were actually REPORTED as having WHITE numbers. White was the authorized and usual color for the 7. Staffel, of course, as you know, and I suspect that unit clerks sometimes simply wrote the usual "white" instead of the actual "blue." I do not think the substitution of blue for white numbers was universal in the 7. Staffel, but I'm absolutely sure that blue numbers could be found on some of the unit's Bf 109F-4s and Bf 109G-2s.

There is also black-and-white photographic evidence (from ca. August-September 1942) that 7./JG 54 applied blue numbers on the first Bf 109G-2s that it received. For example, see the widely published official photograph said at Siverskaya, USSR, in the summer of 1942 showing a Bf 109G-2 marked 10 + ~ of 7./JG 54 in company with a Stab III./JG 54 Bf 109G-2 marked <I + ~ . Comparison of the white Stab markings with the tone of the "10" clearly shows that the "10" and the "~" must be blue and not white.

A little off the track, but I believe that the reason for the blue Tr.KZ is obvious: white tactical numbers simply did not show up adequately against white upper surface camouflage paint.

Best wishes!

RA
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  #7  
Old 30th December 2004, 22:50
Jim P. Jim P. is offline
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The mystery of WNr. 10438

First off, I agree with Rabe as to the use of blue codes on 7./JG 54 machines - in fact, if I recall correctly, there is at least one color photograph of a 7./JG 54 machine in winter camo with a blue code in the Schiffer reprint of the Barbas' 'Aircraft of the LW Aces' volumes - though as I'm currently rearranging my home office/library I have no bloody idea where those books are located at the moment to exactly quote the source.

As to WNr. 10438, this machine was listed in the GQM reports at least 3 times:

Bf 109G-2 10434 OSTERMANN, Oblt. Max-Hellmuth 102 8. JG 54 09-Aug-42 Stkp. KIA in Luftkampf. S; Original entry says 10434 -replaced by 10438, is this correct? Ostfront Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #6)-Vol.10; Obermaier p 31 Pl.Qu. 29523 - Ammosovo (150km S of Lake Ilmen) 100% F

(the published loss of Ostermann in Obermaier shows WNr. 10438 - given its subsequent showings the original 10434 is probably correct!)

Bf 109G-2 10438 Wübke, Oblt. Waldemar 15~ 7. JG 54 09-Sep-42 Stkp. WIA due to enemy fighters. Ostfront Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #9)-Vol.16 Fl.Pl. Mga 15% F

And of course:

Bf 109G-2 10438 Stöber, Fw. Kurt 36 7. JG 54 blaue 1 + ^^ blue nos. used at this time by 7./JG 54. 15-Jan-43 POW, cause unknown. FSA. DK Ostfront Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #8)-Vol.13; Rosipal JG 54 loss list (Welikije-Luki) 100% F

Which is now apparent was the machine flown by Doege. The recorded loss is:
Bf 109G-2 10423 Doege, Ltn. Alfred 7. JG 54 blaue 10 + ^^ 15-Jan-43 MIA after Luftkampf. Ostfront Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #8)-Vol.13; Rosipal JG 54 loss list (Welikije-Luki) 100% F

So were the Doege/Stober losses reversed??
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  #8  
Old 30th December 2004, 23:52
DaveM2 DaveM2 is offline
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IIRC both were flying the sortie together and both were shot down in the same combat over Vera Luki. There was some debate on the old board as to whether they had swapped machines prior to the sortie.

Dave
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  #9  
Old 31st December 2004, 16:45
Charles Bavarois Charles Bavarois is offline
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Blue tactical codes

Hello Anton Rabe and Servus,

great info ! I did not know about blue tactical codes with 7/JG 54 and also do not know the fotos you and Jim P. mentioned, as I only have the German publications of Barbas. The German video from Traditionsverband Grünherz has some very exciting colored sequels, but the only a/c I can conect to 7./JG 54 is a brown/green camouflaged G-2 with white (!) tactical code 2+~. This is one of the great benefits of this board - you can learn a lot only watching what other people contribute

Nevertheless those blue codes remain strange. The loss-reports of 7th Staffel have white codes from 1940 onwards well into 1944 and there is ample fotographical proof for white codes. This is especially true for the new brown/green G-2s with Gondelwaffen in summer of 1942. As you said: perhaps they used the blue codes only on white winter-camo.

Carl
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  #10  
Old 31st December 2004, 19:34
Dronezz Dronezz is offline
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10438

Is it possible for me to restore original paint scheme for 10438?
May be some photos of the 10438 exists made in winter 1943?
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