HE177 gunners V Coastal Command Liberator Gunners
 

Fascinating article in the September (out now) edition of Airplane Magazine.
Page 74 describes how on November 21st 1943, 25 HE177's of 11./KG40 took off to attack the Allied convoy SL139/MKS 30.

During the attack a Coastal Command Liberator from 224 Squadron arrived on an Anti U Boat patrol and, not only interupted the attack but actually took on the bombers with its own defensive guns apparantly damaging several, forcing them to leave the fight for home. The Luftwaffe gunners obviously returned fire but apparantly scored no hits at all ???

Were any of the crews injured or killed during this fight and does anyone have further details to this battle of the giants ?

Did this sort of thing happen before or after, or was it a one off ?

Re: HE177 gunners V Coastal Command Liberator Gunners
 

From NVM's it appears the crew of Oblt von Berg (5/40)were reported missing with two bodies later recovered , while five of the crew of Ofw. Freyer (4/40) were killed in a crash at St. Christoly,
Regards
brian

Re: HE177 gunners V Coastal Command Liberator Gunners
 

Thanks Brian.
Do you know if the losses can be put down to the B24 gunners, Ship AA fire or the poor reliability of the HE177.
Sorry for the request that is probably impossible to answer but i am trying to collate information on Air Gunner kills and claims.

Re: HE177 gunners V Coastal Command Liberator Gunners
 

Sorry Jon no indication on my copies of NVM which show Feindflug for both aircraft. The Griehl/Dressel book shows 'Einsatzverlust' for 535443 F8+BN von Berg's aircraft and 'Absturz' for Freyer's 535683 .

Re: HE177 gunners V Coastal Command Liberator Gunners
 

I can confirm what has been said above. I mention the attack in 'Sea Eagles 2'-nobody saw the B-24 (K/224 Sqn, Fg Off Sutherland) who claimed 2 damaged 1630-1745 hrs. I have the Luftwaffe report for the mission which says:
20 aircraft attacked 1700-1730 hrs with 40 Hs 293 from between 400 & 600m.
1 8000 BRT ship hit and set on fire, 1 1000 BRT ship probably sunk
1 loss due to enemy action (missing)
1 He 177 crashed at Bressuiere, crew baled out unwoundde
1 He 177 crashed 15 km SW Landes de Bussac, crew killed

No mention made of B-24 though!

Re: HE177 gunners V Coastal Command Liberator Gunners
 

Is it a good result, I mean from the point of view of the Luftwaffe, 40 Hs293 launched for 2/3 hits, without aerial opposition ????

I note also that they hv sometimes/ maybe more often/ Fl.ing. a-board from E.stelle ¨Travemünde, to manage the weapon I guess, they were reported as bord-Schütze...

remi

Re: HE177 gunners V Coastal Command Liberator Gunners
 

Interesting stuff.
You would have thought a B24 trading blows with 25 HE177 would have got at least a mention in the raid report !!
Also i find it hard to believe no Luftwaffe gunners scored any hits on something the size of a Liberator, especially when you consider the high level of marksmanship Luftwaffe gunners usually displayed.
What a fascinating encounter though ....

Re: HE177 gunners V Coastal Command Liberator Gunners
 

Hello Remi

I agree it was a poor result from the point of view of the Luftwaffe.
Worth getting the September magazine for this article alone and certainly a good job the HE177 never achieved the same as the B17 or Lancaster in bomber status...especially for London and other UK cities.

Re: HE177 gunners V Coastal Command Liberator Gunners
 

Hello
there might be more info on this attack in the old Profile on He 177 but I don't have now time to check that. But according to Rohwer & Hummelchen's Chronology of the War at Sea 1939 - 1945 (1992) He 177s sunk the freighter Marsa (4405 tons) and damaged Delius (6055 tons). Greater successes were thwarted by the escorts' AA fire.

HTH
Juha

Re: HE177 gunners V Coastal Command Liberator Gunners
 

'Profile' no 234 on the He 177 does cover the attack of 21-11-43 including a report from the Master of the Marsu Capt. Buckle. he described how the engine of one Heinkel burst into flames during the attack There is also mention of the part played by the Liberator damaging one Heinkel and engaging two more.

Re: HE177 gunners V Coastal Command Liberator Gunners
 

BTW From newsgroups: soc.history.war.world-war-ii

"Duel between a B-17 and He-177:
Feb. 20, 1944, a weather recon B-17 flying out of Scotland encountered an
He-177 that was orbiting over the North Sea transmitting a false homing
radio beam to lure American planes flying the Atlantic off course so that
they would run out of fuel far out at sea. When his radio operator picked
up the signal, the B-17 pilot, Guy Reed, assumed it was being broadcast
from a submarine close by and decided to follow the beam and send a
location report. Visibility was about a quarter mile when the crew
spotted not a sub but a big He-177. Reed decided to try to shoot the
He-177 down and a maneuver fight began. At one point the B-17 actually
collided with the He-177, smacking the belly of the German with its tail
fin. The two bombers traded gunfire for some minutes. At one point Reed
was able to position his plane behind and below the German and his gunners
ripped it with heavy fire. The He pilot threw his plane into a dive. The
B-17 followed, then, at low altitude the He-177 deployed its dive brakes
and dropped its gear, slowing dramatically as it pulled up. The B-17
shot past it and it was the turn of the He-177 gunners to rake the B-17
with fire. The top turret plexigas was shattered. The right waist gunner
was killed. At that point, the two planes, flying at about 3,000 feet
flew alongside each other blazing away like two battleships trading
broadsides. The He-177 pilot decided to break away to the right. As he
did so, the ball turret gunner on the B-17 was able to pour gunfire into
the right engine nacelle (housing two engines), apparently knocking them
out. The He pilot lost control and the plane went into a spin and crashed
into the sea. No one got out. Reed was able to nurse his plane home with
some judicious throttle jockeying---the collision had damaged the rudder
so that the plane wanted to turn to the left and would not flying straight
and level. This story is recounted in "Big Week" by Glen Infield."

Re: HE177 gunners V Coastal Command Liberator Gunners
 

only loss for 20/21 feb. is a forced-landing 3.kg100 at Tillé/Beauvais N.France motor trouble/ amazing for a He177/ ANY OTHERS ,,,,????

Remi

Re: HE177 gunners V Coastal Command Liberator Gunners
 

Griehl/Dressel He 177 book has a HE 177A3 535740 of II/KG 40 listed as Nachtbauchlandung ( night crash-landing?) on 20-2-44 , no other details. There is also in the text that during February 1944 (no date) the Gp.Kom. of II/KG 40 in werknummer 5695 fell to an enemy fighter over the Atlantic.

Re: HE177 gunners V Coastal Command Liberator Gunners
 

Date of the loss of He 177 '5695' over the Atlantic was 12-2-44 (see last post).