23/1/44 KG76 Ju88 Crash near Toulouse
 

Hi all,

on 23/1/44, a Ju88A4 (Wnr 300232) F1+0U from IV KG76 crashes at Mauzac near Toulouse, apparently killing its crew (which included Günther Fischbach ). A picture of the crew is now for sale.

https://www.ebay.de/itm/Orig-Foto-KG....c100010.m2109

Anymore info on the crash ?

On the crew ?

thanks in advance;

Gilles

Re: 23/1/44 KG76 Ju88 Crash near Toulouse
 

From National Archives HW 5/427 …

Re: 23/1/44 KG76 Ju88 Crash near Toulouse
 

That's amazing - only 2 days afterwards BP had decoded the signal?

Re: 23/1/44 KG76 Ju88 Crash near Toulouse
 

Hi Siko54 , Sorry for my ignorance.

but can you please explain what is "BP" ?

And what you mean with "has decoded the signal " ?

Best

GC

Re: 23/1/44 KG76 Ju88 Crash near Toulouse
 

Dear Gilles,

BP stands for Bletchley Park, more formally known as the Government Code & Cypher School (GC&CS). Its most famous work was the decryption of German secret radio messages which had been encrypted using the 'Enigma' and 'Lorenz' cypher machines. The British codename for the intelligence based on these decrypts was 'ULTRA'.

Nick Beale is, of course, one of the foremost experts on the subject of 'ULTRA' and has provided a photo of the top half of the page from the following filed held at The National Archives:

Reference: HW 5/427
Description: German section: reports of German army and air force high grade machine decrypts
Date: Jan 25 1944-Jan 26 1944

https://discovery.nationalarchives.g...ils/r/C4303993

Regards,

Dan

Re: 23/1/44 KG76 Ju88 Crash near Toulouse
 

thanks a lot, Dan, for taking time to answer me;

Of course I knew Bletchey Park but I did not the know the acronym and the fact that decryption started on Jan. 1944.

I am also very grateful to Nick for the documents he brings to us, shedding light on so many events.

I discovered that the crew of this Ju88 was as follows (quote) :
"Uffz. Fischbach, Uffz. Kühnel, Gefr. Spech, Gefr. Spude(?), Am 23.1.1944 um 10.30u tötlich abgestürzt"
any information on these guys would be welcome;

All best

Gilles

Re: 23/1/44 KG76 Ju88 Crash near Toulouse
 

In Jan Horn's book on KG 76 and the Ar 234 he lists the following losses for 23-Jan-44.

Ju 88A-14, 144557, n.n., , IV., 10., KG 76, , F1+GU, , , 23-Jan-44, Bruchlandung due to engine trouble., , FR, Horn, KG 76, p.387, , Fl.Pl. Toulouse-Francazal, 10%, H, , ,
Ju 88A-4, 300232, n.n., , IV., 10., KG 76, , F1+OU, , , 23-Jan-44, Engine failure during dive training., , FR, Horn, KG 76, p.387, , Mauzac, 30km südsüdwestlich Toulouse, 90%, H, , ,

Re: 23/1/44 KG76 Ju88 Crash near Toulouse
 

Decryption started just before the war, on a very limited scale but large numbers of messages were being read in the April 1940 Scandinavian Campaign and after late May 1940 from the Luftwaffe and Army in France.

The files of deciphered messages run consecutively from HW 5/1 to HW 5/703 — and that's just Luftwaffe/Army material. There are separate series for the Navy, the Italian Navy, diplomatic signals the various German police/security services and the German railways.

Re: 23/1/44 KG76 Ju88 Crash near Toulouse
 

And, could we know, Nick, what namehv the serie concerning the german navy ?
THks
Rémi

Re: 23/1/44 KG76 Ju88 Crash near Toulouse
 

The DEFE 3/ series contains all the Kriegsmarine messages but they are not in an easy continuous sequence. I've found the best thing to do is to use the National Archives advanced search page.

All the Naval messages I know about hav a serial number that begins ZTPG (which I think stands for Zip TelePrint German. "ZIP" seems to be the Royal Navy's word for ULTRA intelligence). Anyhow …

In the "exact word or phrase" box type either "ZTPG", "ZTPGM" (= Mediterranean), "ZTPGU" (= U-boats) or "ZTPGR" (= Russia, traffic from the Black Sea).

In the "any of these references" type "DEFE 3/".

For "search a date range" it is OK either to put two different years or you can put (say) 1942 in both boxes.

Press "search" and your results will appear. There are the usual options to sort them and I usually go for "Date - ascending"

Re: 23/1/44 KG76 Ju88 Crash near Toulouse
 

Thks Nick,

I follow your explanation, but Records = 0
..
Rémi

Re: 23/1/44 KG76 Ju88 Crash near Toulouse
 

It worked fine when I tried it just now.

To be clear, don't type the quotation marks, just ZTPG or whichever series you want to look at.

Re: 23/1/44 KG76 Ju88 Crash near Toulouse
 

Remi,

Here is a file finder spreadsheet that you may find useful for the DEFE3 files

Re: 23/1/44 KG76 Ju88 Crash near Toulouse
 

Thank you Andy,

I am both admiring and grateful at the effort put into this! Would you mind posting it in the "Using Ultra to research the Luftwaffe" thread as well?

Re: 23/1/44 KG76 Ju88 Crash near Toulouse
 

Nick,

Copied across to the "Using Ultra to research the Luftwaffe" thread as requested.

Re: 23/1/44 KG76 Ju88 Crash near Toulouse
 

thanks a lot, guys

by chance, any more info on the crew or more circumstances of the accident ?

Thanks, cheers

Gilles

Re: 23/1/44 KG76 Ju88 Crash near Toulouse
 

Many thks, ..both, nd It's work , now ! probably the bad luck of the beginners..:D

Rémi

Re: 23/1/44 KG76 Ju88 Crash near Toulouse
 

Has somebody research the ZTPG, with the aero. side in view ? for the 1939/1940 it makes sense no ?
Rémi

Re: 23/1/44 KG76 Ju88 Crash near Toulouse
 

ZTPG, starts only in 1941 ?

Rémi

Re: 23/1/44 KG76 Ju88 Crash near Toulouse
 

Only very rare naval messages were broken in 1940. I have seen a report from Bletchley Park in 1940 asking for additional resources so they could tackle the naval traffic.

Re: 23/1/44 KG76 Ju88 Crash near Toulouse
 

The ULTRA message indicates that pilot error was the reason. The pilot said he was distracted by the crash of a Do 217 and Jean-Louis Roba's « L'Escadre au Drakkar » says that Do 217 E-5, W.Nr. 5406, 6N+CC crashed on take-off from Toulouse on 23 January and all those on board were injured. The pilot of the Do 217 was Hptm. Hans Eberthäuser.

Re: 23/1/44 KG76 Ju88 Crash near Toulouse
 

Thanks Nick, your description refers to is JU88A14 Wnr 144557 that crashed at Francazal being destroyed at 10%.

But the one I am looking for information is JU88 A4 Wnr 300232 which was destroyed at 90% at Mauzac the same day (24 Jan. 44), killing all crew :
Obgfr Heinz Schuck,
Uffz Günther Fischbach
Uffz Karl Kühnl,
Obgfr Alfred Specht

If by chance somebody has more info on that one, or on the crew, I am very interested.

Thanks
Gilles

Re: 23/1/44 KG76 Ju88 Crash near Toulouse
 

GILLES, bonjour.

Jim P. has answered you on the first page....they suffered an engine failure during a dive bombing training. Crashed 90% to the SW of Toulouse.

I wonder how many LW losses in WW2 were attributed to "engine failure"...it seems a high percentage of their overall losses, I guess.

Hope you will find this machine nearby your town....keep safe and we keep in touch.

Adriano