Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum  

Go Back   Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum > Discussion > Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces

Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces Please use this forum to discuss the German Luftwaffe and the Air Forces of its Allies.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 25th March 2021, 07:57
gilles collaveri gilles collaveri is online now
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: toulouse france
Posts: 1,148
gilles collaveri is on a distinguished road
23/1/44 KG76 Ju88 Crash near Toulouse

Hi all,

on 23/1/44, a Ju88A4 (Wnr 300232) F1+0U from IV KG76 crashes at Mauzac near Toulouse, apparently killing its crew (which included Günther Fischbach
). A picture of the crew is now for sale.

https://www.ebay.de/itm/Orig-Foto-KG....c100010.m2109

Anymore info on the crash ?

On the crew ?

thanks in advance;

Gilles
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 25th March 2021, 09:50
Nick Beale's Avatar
Nick Beale Nick Beale is offline
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Exeter, England
Posts: 5,115
Nick Beale will become famous soon enough
Re: 23/1/44 KG76 Ju88 Crash near Toulouse

From National Archives HW 5/427 …
__________________
Nick Beale
http://www.ghostbombers.com
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 25th March 2021, 10:01
Siko54 Siko54 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 176
Siko54 is on a distinguished road
Re: 23/1/44 KG76 Ju88 Crash near Toulouse

That's amazing - only 2 days afterwards BP had decoded the signal?
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 25th March 2021, 10:04
gilles collaveri gilles collaveri is online now
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: toulouse france
Posts: 1,148
gilles collaveri is on a distinguished road
Re: 23/1/44 KG76 Ju88 Crash near Toulouse

Hi Siko54 , Sorry for my ignorance.

but can you please explain what is "BP" ?

And what you mean with "has decoded the signal " ?

Best

GC
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 25th March 2021, 10:29
Dan History Dan History is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 216
Dan History is on a distinguished road
Re: 23/1/44 KG76 Ju88 Crash near Toulouse

Dear Gilles,

BP stands for Bletchley Park, more formally known as the Government Code & Cypher School (GC&CS). Its most famous work was the decryption of German secret radio messages which had been encrypted using the 'Enigma' and 'Lorenz' cypher machines. The British codename for the intelligence based on these decrypts was 'ULTRA'.

Nick Beale is, of course, one of the foremost experts on the subject of 'ULTRA' and has provided a photo of the top half of the page from the following filed held at The National Archives:

Reference: HW 5/427
Description: German section: reports of German army and air force high grade machine decrypts
Date: Jan 25 1944-Jan 26 1944

https://discovery.nationalarchives.g...ils/r/C4303993

Regards,

Dan
__________________
My research paper - How were German air force resources distributed between different fronts in the years 1941 to 1943 - http://www.ww2.dk/Luftwaffe Research.html
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 25th March 2021, 10:42
gilles collaveri gilles collaveri is online now
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: toulouse france
Posts: 1,148
gilles collaveri is on a distinguished road
Re: 23/1/44 KG76 Ju88 Crash near Toulouse

thanks a lot, Dan, for taking time to answer me;

Of course I knew Bletchey Park but I did not the know the acronym and the fact that decryption started on Jan. 1944.

I am also very grateful to Nick for the documents he brings to us, shedding light on so many events.

I discovered that the crew of this Ju88 was as follows (quote) :
"Uffz. Fischbach, Uffz. Kühnel, Gefr. Spech, Gefr. Spude(?), Am 23.1.1944 um 10.30u tötlich abgestürzt"
any information on these guys would be welcome;

All best

Gilles
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 25th March 2021, 14:07
Jim P. Jim P. is online now
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,866
Jim P. is on a distinguished road
Re: 23/1/44 KG76 Ju88 Crash near Toulouse

In Jan Horn's book on KG 76 and the Ar 234 he lists the following losses for 23-Jan-44.

Ju 88A-14, 144557, n.n., , IV., 10., KG 76, , F1+GU, , , 23-Jan-44, Bruchlandung due to engine trouble., , FR, Horn, KG 76, p.387, , Fl.Pl. Toulouse-Francazal, 10%, H, , ,
Ju 88A-4, 300232, n.n., , IV., 10., KG 76, , F1+OU, , , 23-Jan-44, Engine failure during dive training., , FR, Horn, KG 76, p.387, , Mauzac, 30km südsüdwestlich Toulouse, 90%, H, , ,
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 25th March 2021, 14:15
Nick Beale's Avatar
Nick Beale Nick Beale is offline
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Exeter, England
Posts: 5,115
Nick Beale will become famous soon enough
Re: 23/1/44 KG76 Ju88 Crash near Toulouse

Quote:
Originally Posted by gilles collaveri View Post
Of course I knew Bletchey Park but I did not the know the acronym and the fact that decryption started on Jan. 1944.

All best

Gilles
Decryption started just before the war, on a very limited scale but large numbers of messages were being read in the April 1940 Scandinavian Campaign and after late May 1940 from the Luftwaffe and Army in France.

The files of deciphered messages run consecutively from HW 5/1 to HW 5/703 — and that's just Luftwaffe/Army material. There are separate series for the Navy, the Italian Navy, diplomatic signals the various German police/security services and the German railways.
__________________
Nick Beale
http://www.ghostbombers.com
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 25th March 2021, 16:03
RT RT is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: FRANCE
Posts: 3,594
RT is an unknown quantity at this point
Re: 23/1/44 KG76 Ju88 Crash near Toulouse

And, could we know, Nick, what namehv the serie concerning the german navy ?
THks
Rémi
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 25th March 2021, 16:55
Nick Beale's Avatar
Nick Beale Nick Beale is offline
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Exeter, England
Posts: 5,115
Nick Beale will become famous soon enough
Re: 23/1/44 KG76 Ju88 Crash near Toulouse

Quote:
Originally Posted by RT View Post
And, could we know, Nick, what namehv the serie concerning the german navy ?
THks
Rémi
The DEFE 3/ series contains all the Kriegsmarine messages but they are not in an easy continuous sequence. I've found the best thing to do is to use the National Archives advanced search page.

All the Naval messages I know about hav a serial number that begins ZTPG (which I think stands for Zip TelePrint German. "ZIP" seems to be the Royal Navy's word for ULTRA intelligence). Anyhow …

In the "exact word or phrase" box type either "ZTPG", "ZTPGM" (= Mediterranean), "ZTPGU" (= U-boats) or "ZTPGR" (= Russia, traffic from the Black Sea).

In the "any of these references" type "DEFE 3/".

For "search a date range" it is OK either to put two different years or you can put (say) 1942 in both boxes.

Press "search" and your results will appear. There are the usual options to sort them and I usually go for "Date - ascending"
__________________
Nick Beale
http://www.ghostbombers.com
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
[Study] November 23, 1939 : Luftwaffe losses / crash sites over France (I need your help !) DIscotraxxx Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 18 21st October 2013 22:49
Update:107 Plane crash in WWII, 30 km around of Heidelberg Area Part 1 Klaus Deschner Allied and Soviet Air Forces 4 15th August 2013 03:27
Incomplete loss information Jim P. Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 11 7th November 2011 00:33
update on a JU88 crashed in toulouse gilles collaveri Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 2 20th May 2010 14:42


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 20:03.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004 - 2018, 12oclockhigh.net