Yellow Nosed Bf109s
 

Gents,


I’ve commissioned an oil painting by the aviation artist Keith Aspinal depicting an encounter on December 12th 1944 between Avro Lancaster’s of No.31 Base and a number of Bf109’s and FW190’s over Witten.

My question, a number of crew reports and Combat Reports state that the formation was attack by a number of yellow nosed Me109’s. Using Tony Woods excellent site I can confirm that the following Luftwaffe units were involved.

I./JG 3
2./JG 3
3./JG 3
4./JG 3
10./JG 3

4./JG 27
13./JG 27
16./JG 27

Stab IV./JG 27


All of the above units made claims for this encounter, did any have a yellow nose, or spinner.

Any help most welcome.

Yellow noses
 

Roger:

Begining in 1941, almost all bomber crews said they were attacked by yellow-nosed 109s or 190s. The legend of the "yellow-nosed boys of Abbeville" was being built. These were the "toughest" Luftwaffe fighter pilots. After all, who wants to say they were attacked by just average fighter pilots? :wink:

By December 1944, almost all fancy decorations were gone from Luftwaffe fighters save colored bands on the rear fuselage. Many had done away with all unit insignia. An order in July 1944 directed that all fighter units paint their spinners black with a white spiral stripe. By in large this was done, although erratically in the middle of intense combat operations over Normandy and the retreat into the Reich. Ground crews did not have a chance to do this all at once. Some were still one color, maybe green 70 and others varied in style.

Photos of JG 3 and JG 27 at the time show they complied with this. I have not seen one with what could be interpreted to be a yellow nose or spinner.

All? :wink:

http://hem2.passagen.se/galland/Christmas.gif

Me109
 

Gents

Ok, if a yellow nose or spinner is so unlikely, why did so many crews report yellow ‘nosed’ Me109’s? I appreciate the Abbeville syndrome but this late in the war. :?

Is it not possible that an individual pilot could have personalised his aircraft. ? :o

Can anyone please direct me to where I can see examples of JG 3 or JG 27 Me109 camouflage schemes late 44 early 1945. The painting will depict a Me109 attacking an Avro Lancaster, I’m keen to get the camouflage as accurate as possible.

Any guidance most welcome :wink:

yellow nosed
 

Hi Christer: I am afraid your link does not work for me. It takes me to a site which says, in Swedish, I think, that the link is not valid. BTW I did not say "all". I said "almost all".

Smudger: The Allied Abbeville Boys syndrome went on the entire war and was attributed to almost all Luftwaffe fighter units on the western front. The books on JG 27 and JG 3 by Jochen Prien and others will give you plenty of late war schemes.

nice page on camo
 

Okay, John. In three steps:

Go here:

http://hem2.passagen.se/galland/

Click on "News"

Then click on "Merry Christmas"

You see - not all were that dull. . .

:lol: 8)

BTW - Isn't there something familiar over the pilot in the cockpit?

Well, Christer, you are right! I forgot about that one...
 

...Is that Claes in the cockpit? Did not realize he had a white beard!

109s
 

Gents,

Appreciate your help.

Could a Me109 of either JG 3 or JG 27 operating in defence of the Reich late 1944 have had a painted yellow nose section or spinner. :?

I am sorry to labour the point but I really want to portray an authentic Me109 of JG 3 or JG 27 circa December 1944. :shock:

If the answer is no, I can exclude the reports.

I’m certain any deviation in camouflage schemes or non-authentic markings will be pointed out rather quickly. :x

Any help or advice welcome. :lol:

I have a report that mentions maroon spinner on a Fw 190 in the late 1944. I presume this could have been an illusion caused by a spiral spinner combined with lighting conditions.

Re: Yellow noses
 

I am looking at a wartime color photo of 'Black 12' a Bf 109G-10/R2 that served with 2./NAG 14 at the end of the war. The aircraft had a yellow cowl and yellow rudder, but the spinner appears to be a darker color, or perhaps very dirty. The plane was parked in front of a hangar and must have been captured shortly before the photo was made.

Thanks Six Nifty .50s

I’m in a predicament, do I go with the eyewitness reports from a number of returning airgunners who with some conviction record a yellow nosed Bf 109 or have a standard late war paint scheme.

Is there a possibility that a single Bf109 could have had a yellow spinner or lower engine cowling?

I’m looking for some advice or guidance. :shock:

Both the artist and I are extremely eager to make this encounter as accurate and authentic as possible. :wink:

yellow noses
 

This well-known aircraft was from one of those units assigned to what was left of Luftflotte 4 in Hungary and Czechoslovakia. In March 1945 the fighter and ground attack units in this command were directed to replace the yellow "V" marking under their left wing with a yellow band around the from cowling and a yellow rudder. The yellow fuselage band was also to be removed. This is the source of that NAG a/c's markings. The pilot flew to a USAAF base to surrender as did II./JG 52 and SG 2. The single-engined fighter/attack units in the command were JG 52 and elements of SG 2, 10, and 77

The original context of the question about yellow noses was for JG 3, and JG 27 in fighting RAF bombers. The answer is that there has not been a documented case of either of these units, at the time period mentioned, having a yellow nose. The spinners for the period have been seen to have a uniform dark color (black or dark green) or dark with a white spiral. As previously stated, this latter was ordered in July of 1944, at the same time ordering the removal of the yellow from the engine paniers. This yellow marking, started during 1940, was retained by all Luftwaffe fighters in all theaters until this July 44 time. It is often thought to be the source for the many claims of "yellow noses" by RAF and USAAF crews. While a fighter rolling away and giving a flash of that yellow on the pannier would be distinct, it is a far cry from a "yellow-nose" fighter as in the context of markings during the BoB and the RAF bombing campaigns 1941 and 1942 into 1943, when several Luft. units had aircraft with all yellow noses.

It is certainly possible that some older aircraft like a G-6 or G-14 still carried on the rolls of JG 3 or 27 might have retained a yellow painted pannier in December 1944, I personnally doubt it, seeing what photos are available.

Re: Yellow Nosed Bf109s
 

Gents,

A simple question, which I hope, someone can answer (please)

Is there a possibility that a Me 109 operating against from Germany could have had in December 1944 a….

1. A yellow spinner
2. A yellow lower engine cowling.

Any help appreciated.

Re: Yellow Nosed Bf109s
 

There's always a possibility of non-standard markings on individual aircraft but the rules had changed back in the summer of 1944 for aircraft on the Western Front. Go to http://www.ghostbombers.com and click on the tag for "Markings and camouflage" for some of the instructions issued to Luftwaffe units.

Re: Yellow Nosed Bf109s
 

It is possible for a yellow spinner in December 1944, but very doubtful. I have not seen one to date.

It is possible for an a/c to have a yellow engine pannier. It is more likely that a G-6 still in service might have a yellow pannier. Far less likely for a G-14 and very unlikely for a G-14/AS, a G-10, or a K-4.

There are no definitive answers. We are giving you our best and most likely guess.

Re: Yellow Nosed Bf109s
 

John,

Appreciate all your replies.

Regards