Wilde Sau with twin engined fighters.
 

Hi,
I have been going through the KTB of XII.Fl.Korps/I JK for the period 15 SEP 1943 - 1 NOV 1943. I was much surprised to see a massive employment of twin engined fighters in Wilde Sau. Is this an actual reflection of the employment or a misdonomination by the KTB writer of Zahme Sau utilizing the Reportagelage?
bregds
SES
www.gyges.dk

Re: Wilde Sau with twin engined fighters.
 

I think that you are a bit more aware than me concerning the NJ, but at that some months after the use of the "windows" the NJ was a bit in a hot oven trying to build up any new tactics, why not using multi-engines for wildes sau ??

remi

Re: Wilde Sau with twin engined fighters.
 

Hi RJ,
Thank you for the reponse. It was just my impression that Zahme Sau (infiltrating the Bomber Stream) was implemented very quickly. Two methods were used. The crew received the Reportage Lage, performed their own navigation based on radio beacons and infiltrated the Stream. They received control from a Y-Linien Stellung on a time share basis and were directed into the Stream. What I failed to mention in my first post is, that there is no mention in the KTB of Zahme Sau at all for the period September 1943 - November 1943.
bregds
SES

Re: Wilde Sau with twin engined fighters.
 

If that data is on microfilm, would it be possible to get the reference number and source?
Thanks.

With the advent of both the mechanical and electronic jamming against the radios and radars of the night fighters and controlling agencies, beginning with the Hamburg raids, I guess the best the Germans could do was lay out the general direction of the raids and send the fighters to the anticipated targets.

Re: Wilde Sau with twin engined fighters.
 

Hi George,
I believe I'm pretty much on top of that development, please see:
http://www.gyges.dk/Wilde%20&%20Zahme%20Sau.htm
My surprise is more related to the total lack of mention of Zahme Sau in the period mentioned. Let me also add. Iaw the KTB from August 1943 the twin engined fighter fly both Wilde Sau and Zahme Sau for a total of 702 sorties claiming 182 kills. Then suddenly there is no mention of Zahme Sau (except for less than 10 sorties) for 3 month. I think it is more of a question of terminology, than a reflection of the actual concept of employment, or a drunk, sloppy and frustrated KTB Führer.
Ref BAMA RL 8/91.
bregds
SES

Re: Wilde Sau with twin engined fighters.
 

I don't know how detailed your KTB of the XII Flieger Korps is, SES, but the I JK diary (translated to English) for the period 15 -30 Sept 43, noted the following:

"During the dark nights the enemy conducted large-scale raids on Hannover, Darmstadt, and Mannheim, as well as on Bochum and Recklinghausen. The tinfoil strips the enemy dropped during these raids interfered considerably with the spotting and recognition service as well as with the Himmelbett tactics. The approach route of the bomber stream could generally be determined only after observation a/c were scrambled. The increasing numbers of enemy long-range night fighter escorts caused losses among our twin-engined night fighters. Success was achieved by single- and twin-engined night fighters employing objective pursuit tactics. Because few night fighters were equipped with on-board radar the hunt or pursuit night fighting tactics could be employed only to a limited extent."

IJK commitment on the various nights:
2. Night actions between 15 Sept. and 23 Sept. 1943.
1JD: against single a/c, using Himmelbett tactics: 10 2-engined a/c.
2JD: against courier a/c to Sweden, with radar-equipped a/c: 2 1-engined a/c.
3JD: defence against Mosquito attacks on Berlin, with Himmelbett tactics in the area north of Berlin: 28 2-engined a/c

3. RAF raid on Hannover, 22/23 Sept. 43
1JD: Himmelbett between 20:39 and 20:54: 6 2-engined a/c. Pursuit ops from Holland between 21:32 and 00:37: 11 2-engined a/c.
2JD: Himmelbett between 21:01 and 01:10: 7 2-engined a/c.
1JD, 2JD, and 3JD: Objective pursuit in Hannover/Braunschweig area: 197 2-engined a/c.

4. RAF raid on Mannheim and Darmstadt, 23/24 Sept. 43.
1JD: Himmelbett between 21:25 and 01:10: 28 2-engined a/c. Pursuit ops from Holland between 21:24 and 00:30: 7 2-engined a/c.
1JD, 2JD, and 3JD: Objective night fighter tactics in Mannheim/Darmstadt area: 21:16 and 03:25: 186 2-engined a/c.

5. Night actions between 24 Sept. and 1 Oct. 43.
1JD: Himmelbett against Mosquitos in Ruhr area: 1 2-engined a/c.
2JD: Himmelbett against mining in Schlesweig-Holstein area: 7 2-engined a/c.

In these ca. 2 weeks, a total of 18 sorties were shown as being Tame sow, while all the others were either Wild sow or Himmelbett. So, yes, it would appear that a massive effort was made in the Wild sow area because, as I said in my initial note, the Luftwaffe had no other choice.

Re: Wilde Sau with twin engined fighters.
 

Dear George,
Thank you very much for your response. The translation of the I JK KTB you refer to is no doubt the one found here:
http://www.au.af.mil/au/afhra/number...s/studies4.asp
study no 159. Beware VERY LARGE files.
I still think the matter deserves further scrutiny. At this point I have a hard time accepting that so few Zahme Sau sorties were flown in this period. A Dutch friend is looking into RAF Y-Service reports for the period.
bregds
SES

Re: Wilde Sau with twin engined fighters.
 

Wasn't aware of availability of the files as pdf, especially Plocher's study is very interesting reading.

Thanks,
Pawel

Re: Wilde Sau with twin engined fighters.
 

Well, that aspect was handled in the introduction to the day-by-day actions: "Because few night fighters were equipped with on-board radar the hunt or pursuit night fighting tactics could be employed only to a limited extent."

My question would be, what radar that wasn't being jammed did they have that they were able to equip a dozen a/c? The Li B/C and C1 were being jammed, and the Li 220 wasn't yet available. So, else did they have?

Re: Wilde Sau with twin engined fighters.
 

Hi Pawel,
I tried to do a bit of marketing here http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=1620
but people seem to miss it. There has been no response in 3/4 of a year.
bregds
SES

Re: Wilde Sau with twin engined fighters.
 

Dear George,
I am getting more and more convinced that my issue is a matter of wrong terminology. Attached is an extract from a staff meeting in I JK 20 OCT 1943. Here it stated how important it is to have the SN 2 fitted to the nightfighters, since it is a requirement for the conduct of WILDE SAU. The SN 2 was being pressed into service since it worked in a frequency band, which for a while at least, was unaffected by allied ECM, and hence it would greatly enhance the ability to conduct Zahme Sau. I would suggest in the KTB for Wilde Sau please read Zahme Sau throughout at least up to 1 NOV 1943.
bregds
SES

Re: Wilde Sau with twin engined fighters.
 

Yes, you are correct about the problem with terminology, but it does not alter the fact that so few a/c flew on Tame Sow, or "pursuit", operations (as translated in the I JK diary) because of the lack of SN 2 radars.

I had posted a note earlier, which seems to have disappeared, that yes, a few SN 2s would have been available in the fall of 1943 by having Telefunken change production from the FuG 213 to the FuG 220. But, rather than carrying the huge nose antennas we are used to seeing, they would have carried wing antennas. This was the SN 2 Model 0.

I did have a listing of SN 2 production from summer of 1943, but, of course, now that I am looking for it, I cannot find it.

However, I do have a report which shows that I JK had, as of 18.2.44, the following: of its 110 Ju 88s, 17 were outfitted with SN 2; and of 234 Bf 110s, 126 were outfitted with SN 2. So, entering the spring of 1944, less than half of the a/c directly protecting the heart of Greater Germany were outfitted with SN 2. And, of the a/c so equipped, the majority were the Bf 110s which didn't have the range for extended Tame Sow operations.

Oh, and on 22.2.44, II JK declared a single night fighting unit, NJG 4. It had ca. 49 machines, of which 7 were Do 217s with Wendestein, 2 Bf 210s (sic) shadow a/c, and the rest Bf 110s. This unit had 17 SN 2 sets installed, of which 2 were being repaired.

Re: Wilde Sau with twin engined fighters.
 

Hi George,
Since you do not seem to too happy about accepting my argument, maybe you listen to the grand old man of night fighter research (Herr Gebhard Aders), when he responded in a PM to my statement above:

"Correct!

It's sometime "hair-rising", what you will find in original documents! And very misleading! "Beppo" Schmidt used "Wilde Sau" instead of "Zahme Sau".
Sure!
bregs
Gebhard"

bregds
SES

Re: Wilde Sau with twin engined fighters.
 

Hi,
I found that the subject deserved a dedicated page on GYGES, please see:
http://www.gyges.dk/luftwaffe%20nigh...umn%201943.htm
bregds
SES

Re: Wilde Sau with twin engined fighters.
 

I aplogize for not responding sooner but I have been out of town. I'm not quite certain what argument of yours I have not accepted. I agreed that the terminology used by headquarters was incorrect. And, I agreed that, as noted in the introduction to the diary of I JK for the last half of Sept. 43, that the reason for so few Tame Sow sorties was the lack of SN2 equipped fighters. And, I went on to show that even by Febr. 1944, SN 2 equipped fighters comprised less that 1/2 of the operational night fighter forces that were used in those operations. What else was there?

It's nice that you are adding a sub-section of your site to this subject. Unfortunately, my old eyes are having problems in reading the yellow-on-black of your site, and since printing it out doesn't work, I have had to restrict my reading of what appears to be an excellent site.

Re: Wilde Sau with twin engined fighters.
 

Hi George,
Let me the repeat the essence here:
A review of the locations of claims and kills by the twin engined fighters would be a good indication of the type of Verfahren employed. So based on the KTB the sheet below was compiled. It is a summary of night operations based on the KTB of I JK and RAF Bomber Command War Diary , please see below.



and the locations of kills by twin engined fighters was plotted based on Claims and casualties., please see below:




It is evident, that there must have been some twin engined fighters employed on Wilde Sau on some nights, but the long dispersion of kill positions before and after the target also clearly indicate Zahme Sau employment.

bregds
SES