Wilde Sau with twin engined fighters.

[SES]

Hi,
I have been going through the KTB of XII.Fl.Korps/I JK for the period 15 SEP 1943 - 1 NOV 1943. I was much surprised to see a massive employment of twin engined fighters in Wilde Sau. Is this an actual reflection of the employment or a misdonomination by the KTB writer of Zahme Sau utilizing the Reportagelage?
bregds
SES
www.gyges.dk

[RT]

I think that you are a bit more aware than me concerning the NJ, but at that some months after the use of the "windows" the NJ was a bit in a hot oven trying to build up any new tactics, why not using multi-engines for wildes sau ??

remi

[SES]

Hi RJ,
Thank you for the reponse. It was just my impression that Zahme Sau (infiltrating the Bomber Stream) was implemented very quickly. Two methods were used. The crew received the Reportage Lage, performed their own navigation based on radio beacons and infiltrated the Stream. They received control from a Y-Linien Stellung on a time share basis and were directed into the Stream. What I failed to mention in my first post is, that there is no mention in the KTB of Zahme Sau at all for the period September 1943 - November 1943.
bregds
SES

[George Hopp]

If that data is on microfilm, would it be possible to get the reference number and source?
Thanks.

With the advent of both the mechanical and electronic jamming against the radios and radars of the night fighters and controlling agencies, beginning with the Hamburg raids, I guess the best the Germans could do was lay out the general direction of the raids and send the fighters to the anticipated targets.

[SES]

Hi George,
I believe I'm pretty much on top of that development, please see:
http://www.gyges.dk/Wilde%20&%20Zahme%20Sau.htm
My surprise is more related to the total lack of mention of Zahme Sau in the period mentioned. Let me also add. Iaw the KTB from August 1943 the twin engined fighter fly both Wilde Sau and Zahme Sau for a total of 702 sorties claiming 182 kills. Then suddenly there is no mention of Zahme Sau (except for less than 10 sorties) for 3 month. I think it is more of a question of terminology, than a reflection of the actual concept of employment, or a drunk, sloppy and frustrated KTB Führer.
Ref BAMA RL 8/91.
bregds
SES

[George Hopp]

I don't know how detailed your KTB of the XII Flieger Korps is, SES, but the I JK diary (translated to English) for the period 15 -30 Sept 43, noted the following:

"During the dark nights the enemy conducted large-scale raids on Hannover, Darmstadt, and Mannheim, as well as on Bochum and Recklinghausen. The tinfoil strips the enemy dropped during these raids interfered considerably with the spotting and recognition service as well as with the Himmelbett tactics. The approach route of the bomber stream could generally be determined only after observation a/c were scrambled. The increasing numbers of enemy long-range night fighter escorts caused losses among our twin-engined night fighters. Success was achieved by single- and twin-engined night fighters employing objective pursuit tactics. Because few night fighters were equipped with on-board radar the hunt or pursuit night fighting tactics could be employed only to a limited extent."

IJK commitment on the various nights:
2. Night actions between 15 Sept. and 23 Sept. 1943.
1JD: against single a/c, using Himmelbett tactics: 10 2-engined a/c.
2JD: against courier a/c to Sweden, with radar-equipped a/c: 2 1-engined a/c.
3JD: defence against Mosquito attacks on Berlin, with Himmelbett tactics in the area north of Berlin: 28 2-engined a/c

3. RAF raid on Hannover, 22/23 Sept. 43
1JD: Himmelbett between 20:39 and 20:54: 6 2-engined a/c. Pursuit ops from Holland between 21:32 and 00:37: 11 2-engined a/c.
2JD: Himmelbett between 21:01 and 01:10: 7 2-engined a/c.
1JD, 2JD, and 3JD: Objective pursuit in Hannover/Braunschweig area: 197 2-engined a/c.

4. RAF raid on Mannheim and Darmstadt, 23/24 Sept. 43.
1JD: Himmelbett between 21:25 and 01:10: 28 2-engined a/c. Pursuit ops from Holland between 21:24 and 00:30: 7 2-engined a/c.
1JD, 2JD, and 3JD: Objective night fighter tactics in Mannheim/Darmstadt area: 21:16 and 03:25: 186 2-engined a/c.

5. Night actions between 24 Sept. and 1 Oct. 43.
1JD: Himmelbett against Mosquitos in Ruhr area: 1 2-engined a/c.
2JD: Himmelbett against mining in Schlesweig-Holstein area: 7 2-engined a/c.

In these ca. 2 weeks, a total of 18 sorties were shown as being Tame sow, while all the others were either Wild sow or Himmelbett. So, yes, it would appear that a massive effort was made in the Wild sow area because, as I said in my initial note, the Luftwaffe had no other choice.

[SES]

Dear George,
Thank you very much for your response. The translation of the I JK KTB you refer to is no doubt the one found here:
http://www.au.af.mil/au/afhra/number...s/studies4.asp
study no 159. Beware VERY LARGE files.
I still think the matter deserves further scrutiny. At this point I have a hard time accepting that so few Zahme Sau sorties were flown in this period. A Dutch friend is looking into RAF Y-Service reports for the period.
bregds
SES

[Pawel Burchard]

Wasn't aware of availability of the files as pdf, especially Plocher's study is very interesting reading.

Thanks,
Pawel

[George Hopp]

I still think the matter deserves further scrutiny. At this point I have a hard time accepting that so few Zahme Sau sorties were flown in this period. A Dutch friend is looking into RAF Y-Service reports for the period.

Well, that aspect was handled in the introduction to the day-by-day actions: "Because few night fighters were equipped with on-board radar the hunt or pursuit night fighting tactics could be employed only to a limited extent."

My question would be, what radar that wasn't being jammed did they have that they were able to equip a dozen a/c? The Li B/C and C1 were being jammed, and the Li 220 wasn't yet available. So, else did they have?

[SES]

Originally Posted by Pawel Burchard

Wasn't aware of availability of the files as pdf, especially Plocher's study is very interesting reading.

Thanks,
Pawel

Hi Pawel,
I tried to do a bit of marketing here http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=1620
but people seem to miss it. There has been no response in 3/4 of a year.
bregds
SES