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-   -   Axis airplanes captured by Allied troops on Klagenfurt airfield, Austria, 1945 (http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=5306)

Dénes Bernád 30th June 2006 21:07

Axis airplanes captured by Allied troops on Klagenfurt airfield, Austria, 1945
 
At the end of war, hundreds of Axis airplanes were captured by Allied troops on Klagenfurt airfield, Austria (see photo below):

http://www.mit.bme.hu/~tade/ac-pict/...ol/Klagefn.jpg

There must be a detailed list with these booty airplanes compiled by the captors. I'm wondering where can I find it? Or, more photos of this series, taken on the same airfield?

John Beaman 30th June 2006 22:05

Re: Axis airplanes captured by Allied troops on Klagenfurt airfield, Austria, 1945
 
Hi Denes:

There might be, depending on who "captured" the field and when. Frequently, at the end of the war, especially with trainers like these, the intelligence technical crews of RAF, USAAF and FFAF would look to see if anything was of interest, like some new a/c, equipment, etc. and if there was not, they may not have filed a detailed inventory, just a "visitation" report. This was especially true after May 8 when such things as trainers were not of great interest.

Someone here may know where to look in the PRO, the US NA, or the USAF holdings at Maxwell AFB.

edwest 30th June 2006 22:46

Re: Axis airplanes captured by Allied troops on Klagenfurt airfield, Austria, 1945
 
Perhaps the War Archive can help:


http://www.oesta.gv.at/ebestand/ekv/efr1_kv.htm



Ed

Dénes Bernád 1st July 2006 04:44

Re: Axis airplanes captured by Allied troops on Klagenfurt airfield, Austria, 1945
 
I think the pertinent report should be rather located somewhere in the former victors' archives, namely in the UK or USA.

red-star25 1st July 2006 13:16

Re: Axis airplanes captured by Allied troops on Klagenfurt airfield, Austria, 1945
 
Hello Denes!

The FIU report from Klagenfurt is in Maxwell
622.650. But there are not too much a/c listed.
I think, that in PRO should also be a more detailled list.

Regards

Dirk

Nick Beale 1st July 2006 17:48

Re: Axis airplanes captured by Allied troops on Klagenfurt airfield, Austria, 1945
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by red-star25
Hello Denes!

I think, that in PRO should also be a more detailled list.

Regards

Dirk

I thought so too, a long time ago. Sadly there isn't, as far as I know. There is a report but it gives details of only about three aircraft and then mentions that there were numerous training aircraft also, without details.

stephen f. polyak 1st July 2006 20:56

Re: Axis airplanes captured by Allied troops on Klagenfurt airfield, Austria, 1945
 
A check on Goggle Earth clearly shows an airfield (one main runway) to the North and slightly East of Klagenfurt; however, there are no Arados in sight :).

Dénes Bernád 2nd July 2006 06:45

Re: Axis airplanes captured by Allied troops on Klagenfurt airfield, Austria, 1945
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by red-star25
The FIU report from Klagenfurt is in Maxwell
622.650. But there are not too much a/c listed.
I think, that in PRO should also be a more detailled list.

Thanks, Dirk, for the hint. Did you see the report yourself? If yes, is it more detailed than the one just mentioned by Nick? If yes, I'll try to order a copy of the file. I am actually after the Hungarian machines...:)

If the document trail is a dead end, how about the series of photos taken at Klagenfurt (one frame being posted above)?

red-star25 2nd July 2006 16:23

Re: Axis airplanes captured by Allied troops on Klagenfurt airfield, Austria, 1945
 
Hello Denes!

I checked the report again.
The FIU type reports are at 622.011.
The Klagenfurt report has only some Fw 190, Ju 52 and Si 204 mentioned in detail.
No detailled informations about the Hungarian a/c.
In other reports like that are some informations about Hungarian a/c.
If you are interested , send me a PM.

Regards

Dirk

Nick Beale 2nd July 2006 19:53

Re: Axis airplanes captured by Allied troops on Klagenfurt airfield, Austria, 1945
 
The Field Intelligence Unit's Klagenfurt Report is posted as five jpeg attachments, from National Archives AIR23/3460

George Hopp 2nd July 2006 20:46

Re: Axis airplanes captured by Allied troops on Klagenfurt airfield, Austria, 1945
 
Wonderful material, Nick. Thank you.

red-star25 2nd July 2006 23:35

Re: Axis airplanes captured by Allied troops on Klagenfurt airfield, Austria, 1945
 
Hello Nick, it´s the same reports, as in the Maxwell file, I have.

Dirk

lumabe 3rd July 2006 13:02

Re: Axis airplanes captured by Allied troops on Klagenfurt airfield, Austria, 1945
 
Hello,

A Henschel Hs-126 is mentioned on the documents above.
I think it is this:

[img]http://lumabe.free.fr/Divers/Hs126_2.jpg[/img]

[img]http://lumabe.free.fr/Divers/Hs126_3.jpg[/img]

The document says also that this Hs-126 was fitted with bomb rack and was used against "Yugo-Slaves".

It's very difficult to see the call sign of this plane and also the serial number. Please , somebody have other pictures about this plane ?

Thank you very much,

Best regards,

Lumabe.

Nick Beale 3rd July 2006 14:23

Re: Axis airplanes captured by Allied troops on Klagenfurt airfield, Austria, 1945
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by lumabe
The document says also that this Hs-126 was fitted with bomb rack and was used against "Yugo-Slaves".

It's very difficult to see the call sign of this plane and also the serial number. Please , somebody have other pictures about this plane

From memory, the Hs 126 was either yellow E or yellow F. The photo is in the Imperial War Museum collection (as is the one with all the Ar 96s) and has been published many times.

Dénes Bernád 4th July 2006 06:03

Re: Axis airplanes captured by Allied troops on Klagenfurt airfield, Austria, 1945
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Nick Beale
From memory, the Hs 126 was either yellow E or yellow F. The photo is in the Imperial War Museum collection (as is the one with all the Ar 96s) and has been published many times.

Excellent material, Nick. Thank you!
Pitty that the serial and construction numbers of the "unimportant" trainers were not recorded.

Has anyone any clue of what airplane types "Vorcelli 8105", "Bu 191C" and "Viet 200" actually might be?

I assume "B.51" is actually Beneš-Mráz Be-51, known to be captured and used by the Luftwaffe (but not by the Royal Hungarian Air Force).

Have you, or someone else, seen the complete series of photos taken at Klagenfurt, currently preserved at IWM, as you noted? If yes, are there any frames that are unpublished (where some of the unregistered codes might be seen)?

Gianandrea Bussi 4th July 2006 11:26

Re: Axis airplanes captured by Allied troops on Klagenfurt airfield, Austria, 1945
 
"Vorcelli" could perhaps be an italian Avia Fl.3, built in the town of Vercelli.
Italian serial (MM) were in the 56xxx range.

Gianandrea

red-star25 4th July 2006 13:09

Re: Axis airplanes captured by Allied troops on Klagenfurt airfield, Austria, 1945
 
I think, that the Bu 191 C is just a typo for the Buecker 181 C airplane.

Dirk

Dénes Bernád 5th July 2006 05:37

Re: Axis airplanes captured by Allied troops on Klagenfurt airfield, Austria, 1945
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Gianandrea Bussi
"Vorcelli" could perhaps be an italian Avia Fl.3, built in the town of Vercelli.

Yes, the coincidence is striking.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gianandrea Bussi
Italian serial (MM) were in the 56xxx range.

In this case, I believe they've found a Croatian machine (I don't have my references handy).

Dénes Bernád 5th July 2006 05:41

Re: Axis airplanes captured by Allied troops on Klagenfurt airfield, Austria, 1945
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by red-star25
I think, that the Bu 191 C is just a typo for the Buecker 181 C airplane.

I was also tempted to believe it, but the 'Bu 181' is already listed separately.

Finally, could the 'Viet 200' actually be a Saiman 200? Also flown by the Croat air force...

P.S. Dirk, a personal message to you is on its way...

trevor baxter 6th July 2006 22:40

Re: Axis airplanes captured by Allied troops on Klagenfurt airfield, Austria, 1945
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Nick Beale
From memory, the Hs 126 was either yellow E or yellow F. The photo is in the Imperial War Museum collection (as is the one with all
thepublished man Ar 96s) and has been y times.


I saw another photo of this aircraft some years ago and it showed the emblem of the 2./NAGr 12 on the port side of the nose

stefaan 5th September 2018 14:29

Re: Axis airplanes captured by Allied troops on Klagenfurt airfield, Austria, 1945
 
Hi Dirk.
I see you are mentioning that they found Ju 52s found at Klagenfurt.
Can you please send me details of those please
Thx
Stefaan

Steve Coates 5th September 2018 15:49

Re: Axis airplanes captured by Allied troops on Klagenfurt airfield, Austria, 1945
 
Stefaan

Sent.

Steve

ChristianK 5th September 2018 16:02

Re: Axis airplanes captured by Allied troops on Klagenfurt airfield, Austria, 1945
 
While we are at this topic again - Does anyone know the Verbandskennzeichen/unit codes of the Hs 126s found at Klagenfurt?

In the pictures I have access to I count at least five of them (coded ??+EL, ??+KL, perhaps ??+IL and two unknown). I guess most or all of them did belong to Nachtschlachtgruppe 7, so they might have been marked either "4X" or "9H" (the latter was the unit code of Nahaufklärungsgruppe Kroatien, where these Hs 126 likely originated from). Is there any info or documentation on this?


Cheers,
Christian

Steve Coates 5th September 2018 18:09

Re: Axis airplanes captured by Allied troops on Klagenfurt airfield, Austria, 1945
 
Sadly no. FIU Report No. 39 refers to 3 Hs 126s but gives no markings details. It does comment that the Hs 126s were probably used against the 'Jugo-Slavs'. It further mentions that: One of the Henschel 126 has an attachment under the fuselage filled with four ETC 50-VIIId bombslips capable of carrying in all 4 - 100 lb. bombs.

I've got a decent quality photo of + EL but no Verbandskennzeichen can be made out.

Nick Beale 5th September 2018 18:49

Re: Axis airplanes captured by Allied troops on Klagenfurt airfield, Austria, 1945
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ChristianK (Post 257425)
I guess most or all of them did belong to Nachtschlachtgruppe 7, so they might have been marked either "4X" or "9H" (the latter was the unit code of Nahaufklärungsgruppe Kroatien, where these Hs 126 likely originated from). Is there any info or documentation on this?

Cheers,
Christian

According to the loss lists in Lovro Persen's "Hunting Tito", in NSG 7 the Hs 126 only served with the 2. Staffel, which should rule out an "L" code. To be pedantic it was only Nahaufklärungsstaffel Kroatien, not a Gruppe, but I don't have any examples of Hs 126 codes only some Werk Nummern.

ChristianK 5th September 2018 19:30

Re: Axis airplanes captured by Allied troops on Klagenfurt airfield, Austria, 1945
 
Thank you both for the quick reply. And of course, Staffel not Gruppe. You are right, Nick.
And in regard to the "L": I figured this might have been one the cases which occured in the last days of war, when older tactical markings were carried on with their planes to new units without a change. But all these Hs 126 are marked pretty consistently and not like a rag-tag bunch assembled from various sources. So I guess they could very well have belonged to a "real" 3. Staffel of another unit.

But to be honest, the number of possible contenders is low. The only other He 126 user besides NSGr. 7 in southeastern Europe at this time was NAGr.12, and there also just its 2. Staffel...

Guess this remains a mystery for now.

stefaan 5th September 2018 20:43

Re: Axis airplanes captured by Allied troops on Klagenfurt airfield, Austria, 1945
 
Hi Guys.
Thx for the help.
It looks like 40 SAAF flew at least one of the Ju 52s on the base.
The Ju 52s flown by the SAAF is a real problem.
I have photos of a number of them but CQ HH I still need a photo as it was found in the desert.
It is recorded that it was found in the desert and came to the Union, at least after the War. It is noted as named Sidi Haneish, but I don't have a photo of it.
That a/c may have been found at Sidi Haneish as it looks like the SAAF named them according to where they were found.
I also have two a/c that I can see were restored but not painted into SAAF colours yet.
C3+KH
1Z+AK W.Nr. 7605.
Don't know if anybody has any gen on them.
If so if you can find out where they were found one may be able to link them to a SAAF serial.
Stefaan

Merlin 5th September 2018 22:18

Re: Axis airplanes captured by Allied troops on Klagenfurt airfield, Austria, 1945
 
The Nahaufklärungsstaffel Kroatien flew since May 1944 with the unit code 9H+xL.

ChristianK 5th September 2018 22:34

Re: Axis airplanes captured by Allied troops on Klagenfurt airfield, Austria, 1945
 
Ok, thanks Gerhard for this info, very appreciated! This sounds like a match. May I ask which is your source (or sources) for this?

cproyston 6th September 2018 01:05

Re: Axis airplanes captured by Allied troops on Klagenfurt airfield, Austria, 1945
 
I also have the Klagenfurt Hs126s noted as Nahaufklärungsstaffel Kroatien. I believe a description of the most reproduced photo in the Luftwaffe Verband first made the assertion of the 9H unit code being applied, but I’ve never seen one.

BTW at least another 4 identically marked (at least in terms of Luftflotte 4 ID markings) were photographed at Bad Aibling (and seen/found on Marc’s excellent Flickr page):

https://www.flickr.com/photos/280920...7631640861826/

Cheers,
Chris

edwest2 6th September 2018 01:36

Re: Axis airplanes captured by Allied troops on Klagenfurt airfield, Austria, 1945
 
I hope the following is helpful:

https://www.asisbiz.com/Luftwaffe/bkroatien.html
https://www.asisbiz.com/Luftwaffe/kroatien.html

An old thread that adds detail. http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/archiv...p?t-17097.html

ChristianK 6th September 2018 02:15

Re: Axis airplanes captured by Allied troops on Klagenfurt airfield, Austria, 1945
 
Thank you both!

Chris, this photo was actually taken at Klagenfurt-Annabichl and shows the five identically marked Hs 126 I mentioned before (three in the center of the picture, two in the background).

A sixth, marked (white?) "30" and with a blackened fuselage can be seen in the left foreground. Perhaps this one had belonged to a different unit, or was an aircraft actually used for night-attack purposes. Maybe this is the one mentioned in the FIU Report No. 39, equipped with bombslips...

edwest2 6th September 2018 05:53

Re: Axis airplanes captured by Allied troops on Klagenfurt airfield, Austria, 1945
 
Additional information:

https://www.asisbiz.com/Luftwaffe/nbalkan.html

Steve Coates 8th September 2018 12:43

Re: Axis airplanes captured by Allied troops on Klagenfurt airfield, Austria, 1945
 
Just to clear things, it's been established in correspondence with Stefaan that CQ+HH was indeed found at Klagenfurt rather than in the Western Desert. Bizarrely though the Stkz was misquoted in the FIU Report.

lumabe 21st August 2019 15:36

Re: Axis airplanes captured by Allied troops on Klagenfurt airfield, Austria, 1945
 
Hello,
A croat biplane with the croat crosses on the wings and on the side was at Klagenfurt between a Fw 190 and some german and hungarian Ar 96 training aircraft. I think this plane was a Zmar Fizir FP2 but i'm not 100% sure. Do you have some informations about it ? Do you know if this plane had a four number painted on the side after the cross like some croat planes at this time in the end of the war ?


And i have the same request about a fuselage part of maybe a Do 17z2 with also a croat cross on the side but it's impossible to see a four number. An artist profile exist showing this plane with a yellow band around the engines covers from the LuftwaffenKommando 4 and with spiral painted on the propeller pan. Do you have some informations about it ?


Thank you very much in advance,
Best regards,
Lumabe.

Steve Coates 21st August 2019 16:16

Re: Axis airplanes captured by Allied troops on Klagenfurt airfield, Austria, 1945
 
There are no details given for the Do 17 in the FIU Report other than to state one captured. Equally no real detail given for the miscellaneous types but it does confirm that other than the German machines, one of the following types was captured: Vercelli 8105, B.51, Bu191C and Viet 200. I am pretty unfamiliar with these types so don't know if this helps at all.

ChristianK 21st August 2019 16:25

Re: Axis airplanes captured by Allied troops on Klagenfurt airfield, Austria, 1945
 
1 Attachment(s)
Hey Lumabe,

it's "0402" - see attachment. I do not know, however, if there was more than one croatian Do 17 at Klagenfurt..

Cheers,
Christian

ChristianK 21st August 2019 16:34

Re: Axis airplanes captured by Allied troops on Klagenfurt airfield, Austria, 1945
 
1 Attachment(s)
Here you can see the (same?) plane still on its feet. Not much to discern here, but yellow cowlings and spinner spirals are perfectly possible.

lumabe 22nd August 2019 12:58

Re: Axis airplanes captured by Allied troops on Klagenfurt airfield, Austria, 1945
 
1 Attachment(s)
Thank you very much ChristianK.

I have this picture found on the web, but the quality was very poor and it was impossible to see the numbers with a light post process.

This is the picture of the croatian biplan

I think to see a black letter "V" on the side after the cross.

Best regards
Lumabe

Kaiyan 22nd August 2019 14:45

Re: Axis airplanes captured by Allied troops on Klagenfurt airfield, Austria, 1945
 
1 Attachment(s)
I think you are looking at this machine Fizir FP2 there are several pics of it out on the net... this came from the old LEMB...


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