a/c id'd as 'Lockheed' lost 5.11.1940

[Adam]

Does anyone have details of a Lockheed (Hudson?) shot down - or at least engaged by - Bf 110s (presumably ZG76) off the north eastern coast of England on 5 November 1940? The RAF aircraft were attempting to engage He 115s of 2./506 who were operating in grid Q6843.

Not much to go on, I know, sorry. Any details would be appreciated.

[Alex Smart]

Hello,
A 77 Sqdn Whitley went into the sea.
Alex

[Adam]

Hi Alex,

Do you havew details of the location and crew? Thanks for the pointer.

Adam

[Chris Goss]

This was Hudson A/220 Sqn which reported a combat with 2 He 115s & 2 Bf 110s north of the Frisians at 1303 hrs claiming one of the latter destroyed which matches with the loss of Fw Artur Hering of 4/ZG 76

[Alex Smart]

Hello Adam,
Whitley T4151 "KN-N", ditched 8 miles East of North Shields, Northumberland. Crew were rescued by local steam ship.
Another from 10 Sqdn P5001 "ZA-S" was never found last plotted 10 miles East of North Foreland.
220 Sqdn squadron codes were "NR".
refs: BCL 1939-1940 by W R Chorley.
Alex

[Chris Goss]

It is my opinion that the 220 Sqn combat was the one you are after not the 77 Sqn ditching

[FrankieS]

T4151:
"On 5th November 1940 flying a 77 Squadron Whitley T4151, P/O Miller, along with four other airmen, two of these were Sgt Gilbert and Sgt Thorpe who were on the Whitley which crashed on Arden Great Moor (detailed at the top of this page). On this flight in November 1940 they were undertaking a raid on Milan with other aircraft but after flying in electrical storms outbound this was the only aircraft to bomb Milan. The wireless became unservicable, strong winds and snow and ice over the Alps effected flying. After being in the air for over 11 hours (or 13 hours, the time varies from source to source) the aircraft was ditched in the North Sea off South Shields when they became lost and probably ran low on fuel. They were rescued from their dinghy by a passing steamer and taken ashore. "

[Adam]

thanks for the information. however, it appears according to the 506 KTB that the English pilot/crew engaged - or at least attempted to - a seaplane (He 115) and then was shot down. The 506 KTB indicates that the [Lockheed] engaged the seaplanes but was in turn engaged by the 110 escort which shot the RAF plane down. Oblt München (the Beo. on hand) of 506 stated a search resulted but nothing came of it. My German is poor to say the least but it doesn't appear that it was a tit-for-tat affair.

A ditch doesn't sound like a "crash" while none of the reports suggest a combat that resulted in a German loss....Chris, 220 seems like a proper bet, but I don't like the loose ends.

[Peter Cornwell]

Adam,

I believe Chris Goss is quite right. It was a No.220 Squadron Hudson that attacked the He115s of 2./KüFlGr.506 only to be engaged in turn by the escort Bf110 of 4./ZG76. What Oberlt Münnich the Beobachter aboard S4+CK must have seen go into the sea was actually the Bf110 M8+GM of Fw Arthur Hering and Gefr Heinz Ulrich. What I find interesting is the possibly telling remark in the KTB that after searching the area for wreckage and survivors without success the He115 completed its assignment ‘without further fighter protection’. As far as I am aware the Hudson returned undamaged.

[Observer1940]

Further confirmation, to rule out Miller's Whitley, is that Whitley T4151 "F/L in sea beside Trawler" ... "8m east North Shields in North Sea" on 6th November 1940. AM1180

Although the wireless was described as "U/S" [possibly for navigating by], an SOS Action was raised at 0607 6/11, for this Whitley with 5 on board reported at 0507 hrs GMT. "From Sealand" and noted "12m E North Foreland"

See also - following post by Ross (regarding above SOS Action)

Whitley P5001
Regarding the 10 Squadron Whitley V P5001 the AM 78 does confirm Whitley P5001 as "5.11.40 FB.O.(3) In Sea". The P5001 aircraft had only completed 214 flying hours in total and was formally written off 1.12.40, with a reference to "Nov 40".

Unfortunately, I have no other official document copies on this Whitley and no 5th November "In Sea" position. Chorley indicates the bomber was plotted 10 miles E of North Foreland.

Mark