Who shot down 7th Sept 1939 near Warsaw

[Marek Rogusz]

Hi to all,
I am looking for information that could help to determine who could shoot down PZL.23 Karaś from 55 Bomber Squadron over the village of Nowe Grabie (circa 24 km NE of Warsaw) crew Pytlakowski, Zarzecki, Iwaniuk. Polish bomber was shot down by fighter (not sure 1 or 2 engine) at approx. 4-5 p.m. September 7, 1939.
Eye witnesses confirmed, that the whole incident took place very near in time and space to fight where 3 PZL.37 wre downed near Radzymin by ZG 1. That was just 8-9 km away from this event.
I thought about:
1 Ofw. Johann Klein 07.09.1939 Bf.109 E I./JG 76 16.45 Biala-Deszcze PZL P-23
2 Oblt. Werner Methfessel 07.09.1939 Rozan PZL P43
3 Hpt. Fritz Schleif 07.09.1939 Bf.110 C I.(Z)/LG 1

But…
Ad. 1 that was probably in another area, I am not sure.
Ad. 2 that was supposed to be in morning that day, probably?
Ad.3 no further info??? Was He shot down that day? But where?
Any hints?
Appreciate your help.

[robert]

This P.23 was probably mistakenly shot down by P.37 during combat with Bf110s. There are no matching Luftwaffe claims (next kill was recorded by I./ZG1 on the next day so they claimed 3 kills during combat with P.37`s).

Regards

Robert

[Marek Rogusz]

Facts:
- several witnesses confirm that PZL.23 was shot down by a fighter,
- place when the plane hit the ground is known, as well as
- graveyard when polish crew is buried.
According to 55 Bomber squadron campaign report crew was MIA, 7th Sept 1939 in the afternoon.
It could be that above date is mistaken and then we should take in consideration dates between 6-8th Sept 1939.
The biggest mystery still is who could be a Luftwaffe pilot that shot down this a/c...

[robert]

According to Juliusz Molski there was no living witness of the crash of this a/c at the time of his research. So you witnesses could be no real witnesses.
How sure you are about the time of this loss? Do you have the exact takeoff time? Do you have the mission purpose?

Regards

Robert

[Marek Rogusz]

Robert
I have been working on this case 3 years, now. And answer to all your questions is Yes. Based on source documents from archives, site visits, personal interviews with witnesses.
Anyone hints on Luftwaffe pilot or unit that operated in area those days?

[robert]

OK. Which document states that they had taken off in the afternoon? I`m not asking for recollections.
Many Luftwaffe units operated over this area on this day. But no claims with exception of P.37 claim (or false observation?) for Bf110 in combat with I./ZG1.

Regards

Robert

[Marek Rogusz]

According to 55 Bomber Squadron campaign report PZL.23 left airfield in the afternoon.

Rgs

[robert]

According to documents from no.55 Sqn I have two takeoff times: 13.00 hrs and 15.00 hrs. So everything is open.

Regards

Robert