LeLv 26

[Pilot]

Just published book about this unit- very limited edition!!! Short review:

http://www.letletlet-warplanes.com/2...entolaivue-26/

Cheers

[Martti Kujansuu]

These kind of books are quite common in Finland nowadays. What is common is the author is a veteran or a child of a veteran. He probably doesn't have a major in history or he maybe haven't even studied at any university.

There's a word in Finnish for these kind of books / research, "nollatutkimus" ("zero research"). What I'm missing in these books are the sources! It's quite hard to read between the lines and try to find out what are the facts, what's fiction, what information was gathered from interview(s) and what from period documents.

Martti

[Jukka Juutinen]

Martti, the word "nollatutkimus" does not apply to these books, which you should well know if you are supposedly studying history! And what has university to do with good historical writing? E.g. Jukka Raunio´s books are first class stuff, yet he has not studied history in academia for a single second. On the other had, Heikki Ylikangas produces true "nollatutkimus", yet you know his academic credentials. Or Johan Bäckman´s.

I do agree that source noting would help a great deal, but then we should add that neither the official 4-volume Winter War or the 6-volume Continuation War history do have footnoting! Or the old Suomen sota. Or Halsti´s trilogy (Talvisota, Kesäsota,...). A fact which e.g. Mauno Jokipii criticised those two series for.

[Martti Kujansuu]

Originally Posted by Jukka Juutinen

And what has university to do with good historical writing?

Basic of scientific writing is teached at the university. Two percent of the hours used to get the Master's degree in history is used on learning scientific writing.

Originally Posted by Jukka Juutinen

E.g. Jukka Raunio´s books are first class stuff, yet he has not studied history in academia for a single second. On the other had, Heikki Ylikangas produces true "nollatutkimus", yet you know his academic credentials. Or Johan Bäckman´s.

The single most important thing in science is that all things in the research can be done again. If I'll try to find the sources on Raunio's books or articles, I can not recreate his "footsteps" at the archive. Raunio has a Master of Science in Technology but I'm not sure if they teach scientific writing in Helsinki "University" of Technology.

Studying in an university doesn't make the text scientific in it's own but it sure helps more than any other education.

Originally Posted by Jukka Juutinen

I do agree that source noting would help a great deal, but then we should add that neither the official 4-volume Winter War or the 6-volume Continuation War history do have footnoting! Or the old Suomen sota. Or Halsti´s trilogy (Talvisota, Kesäsota,...). A fact which e.g. Mauno Jokipii criticised those two series for.

I have understood the "Jatkosodan Historia" was made by the now-late Sotatieteen laitos (part of the Finnish Defence Forces) and not by any credited historian of that time.

Wolf H. Halsti was a Colonel at the Finnish Army and not a historian so it's no miracle he didn't know how to mark down the sources.

Finnish reporter Seppo Porvali has just uncovered a new book which main subject is Finnish fighter ace Ilmari Juutilainen. My understanding is that Juutilainen's own memoir is enough and Porvali doesn't tell his sources and doesn't tell anything new from the subject. This is Porvali's sixth book in just four years.

Martti

[Jukka Juutinen]

Seppo Porvali is a chapter of its own. However, you should check out the roster of Jatkosodan historia´s editorial staff. Well know "heavy hitters" like Ohto Manninen wrote in it.

Jukka Raunio is a diploma engineer (DI). And he did not study history for a single second.

And your comment on Mannerheim Cross winner Halsti is not even worth responding as you obviously don´t understand. Suffice it to say that Halsti received honorary doctorate from Helsinki University in 1976.

[Pilot]

At least I can say that author of the book was veteran of the unit and spent much time in research in archive as well contact with former unit members. I can not accept that somebody who was former pilot of the unit is not competitive to write historic publication about its own unit. If he is not- who is?

But for sure that you better know situation in Finland...

Thank you for attention

[Martti Kujansuu]

Originally Posted by Jukka Juutinen

Jukka Raunio is a diploma engineer (DI). And he did not study history for a single second.

Master of Science (Technology) is the correct translator for "Diplomi-insinööri" in Finnish. It seems that scientific writing is mandatory for Master of Science in Finland.

Originally Posted by Jukka Juutinen

And your comment on Mannerheim Cross winner Halsti is not even worth responding as you obviously don´t understand. Suffice it to say that Halsti received honorary doctorate from Helsinki University in 1976.

Halti's honorary degree was awarded to him from social sciences (valtiotieteet) and probably not from his work with history. All the presidents get it, Martti Ahtisaari was a school teacher etc. General Ensio Siilasvuo spent whole his work life in the service of Finnish Defence Forces was awarded with honorary degree from social sciences in 1990!

Originally Posted by Pilot

I can not accept that somebody who was former pilot of the unit is not competitive to write historic publication about its own unit. If he is not- who is?

I would say that someone who hasn't got any biases from the subject and who can understood sources from both sides - Finland and U.S.S.R - and got the right education to write a proper work from the unit (historiikki).

[Pilot]

Only one thing I know- dissusions like this give much more attention to teh subject

[Juha]

Thanks for the info, Pilot. I have seen the original 1991? edition of the book and it seemed very interesting but I have been too lazy to try to find a copy of it but I just asked from Jyrki T from where I can buy a copy if the price is right.

Martti, I’d not call, at least the original version of, Bruun’s book a “nollatutkimus”. It has many docus reproduced in it. Have a reproduction of a document is even better than to have a proper note to say from where one can find the document. Of course the best solution is to have both the reproduction and an accurate note.

In general it usually helps if a writer has some historical education but in the end it’s up to the writer, university professors had wrote BS, even those from my old alma mater, University of Helsinki, and sometimes writers without any formal historical education wrote good histories. After all history isn’t black magic, if one has good brains, critical mindset and ability to see causalities and ask right questions he should be able to write at least passable unit history.

Juha

[Martti Kujansuu]

Originally Posted by Juha

Martti, I’d not call, at least the original version of, Bruun’s book a “nollatutkimus”. It has many docus reproduced in it. Have a reproduction of a document is even better than to have a proper note to say from where one can find the document. Of course the best solution is to have both the reproduction and an accurate note.

To be more precise from scientific view the book is worthless. Of course to a layman this book has more worth.

Originally Posted by Juha

After all history isn’t black magic, if one has good brains, critical mindset and ability to see causalities and ask right questions he should be able to write at least passable unit history.

Unfortunately this kind of combination is highly unusual nowadays among the layman. Unit histories are often hard to write in an interesting way since they are writen in chronological order. That is the reason I'm more interested in more complex "situations" like what is the link between A and B and what A did to C.

Martti