8./JG301 Staffel colors

[ChristianK]

Gentlemen,

just a short and simple question: Which color was used by 8./JG 301 towards the end of the war? (I'm asking because of famous "Red (?) 22" at Langensalza)

Cheers,
Christian

[Erich]

8th staffel colours were blue flying Fw 190A-8 and A-9's. as to pilots from the staffel having red numerals on their crates they were borrowed machines

[ChristianK]

Thanks Erich,

like some others I always wondered about the true color of "Red (?) 22" (Werknr. 490044), as there are some shots in which the numeral has got a totally different tonal value as the red part of the fuselage band. I assumed the number "22" could very well be blue or green. The fact that 8./JG301 used blue numbers could very well support this assumption. Is it known wether this Staffel used a white outline for its numerals?

Cheers,
Christian

[SMF144]

ChristianK - tonal values...in black and white? How do "we" know the same paint was used for both the 22 and the RVD band? Something to think about before jumping the gun.

[ChristianK]

Oh, do not think I was not aware of that. It's just because the fuselage band and the numeral were added at unit level at (supposedly) the same time - it is highly unlikely that the maintenance crew would have used two different kinds of red. Don't you think?

There is one fact, though, that could affect the tonal value in a notable manner: If the red part of the fuselage band was applied over a coat of yellow paint. If anything, than that's the reason why the colors of the numeral and the band look different in b/w photos.

I might be wrong of course - there is a possibility that JG301 used some kind of collecting pool where all the Geschwader bands were applied before the aircraft were assigned to the different Staffeln. In this case two different kinds of red are very well possible.

Additionally, as many (most?) Luftwaffe units who used blue numbers applied white outlines to them, there is still a high probability that 490044 is a Red "22" indeed. However, it was not my intention to run around and claim "It's blue! It's blue!" I just asked my initial question to get some material to think about.

Regards,
Christian

P.S. I've attached one of the more peculiar images of this aircraft to illustrate the problem. Source is Wings of the Black Cross, Vol.5.

[Nick Beale]

Originally Posted by SMF144

How do "we" know the same paint was used for both the 22 and the RVD band?

While we're seeking accuracy about markings, what would the "D" in RVD stand for?

Even if you believe that Geschwader identification bands were exclusive to home defence units (which they weren't), the compound word Reichsverteidigung is made up of Reichs [adjective] and Verteidigung [noun], so it would abbreviate as RV.

[SMF144]

Hi ChristianK,

I understand where you are coming from but it is difficult establishing exact colours from black and white pictures other than the "known". In this case, the RV band is known as being red and yellow. Unless we have primary documentation to consult about the markings of this airframe, then we can only come up with a best educated guess. I have studied pictures of 22 and there are a number of factors to consider. Do we know this history of this airframe? Was it on strength with JG301 from the beginning, or, was it transferred at some point? The picture you posted comes from a well known series and upon examination shows the exterior of the airframe to be in less than ideal condition, for obvious reasons. (My reference is pages 48-50, Luftwaffe Warbirds Photo Album vol.1). In two of the images taken from the port side, the tonal value of the two dark colours looks like a close match; the one on page 48 looks convincing. Again, we don't know when both colours were applied. There's definitely heavy staining from the exhaust which is going to cover 22, causing it to lighten/fade, more so than the band...anyhow, I am getting off track.


While we're on the topic of JG301, and for discussion purposes, I am attaching two well known images of JG301 birds.

Nick, yes, I am wrong and thanks for the correction. I have seen it referenced as such in publications and never gave it any thought. A little bit of knowledge is indeed dangerous. By-the-way, I am aware that the RV bands were not used exclusively for the defence of the fatherland.

Stephen

[Erich]

as we are discussing Röte 22 let me add it came from 6th staffel, my cousin flew an A-9 Weiße 2 in 5th staffel in October/November 1944 before he was KIA.

E ~

[Harold Lake]

I think we are loosing sight of what the so-called "twenty" numbers represented and by extension their designated color. It is my understanding single engine aircraft desplaying numbers from 20 to 23 were always Gruppen staff aircraft. As such, green was the color of choice but not always. For example, the He 162s found at Leck had white staff sumbers in the twenty range;not green as you might expect. Therefore, if we follow this logic, is it fair to say that the Fw 190 with "22" actually had this number is some form of green? It would certainly be expected.

[ChristianK]

Harold, numbers in the twenty range for Gruppenstab aircraft is a new fact for me. It sure sounds interesting. What's your source for that?

Cheers,
Christian