P-38 losses, southern Greece 15/17 November,1943

[Oberst]

Hello,

I was wondering if anybody could list any P-38s lost/damaged in southern Greece during the 15th and 17th of November, 1943. As always, thanks in advance.

[Kutscha]

There is a couple of discussions going on this board, http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/aviation/

See the Bartel and Hartmann threads.

[Oberst]

the Bartels one is mine. I just need a difinitive answer on the P-38 situation.

[wellss]

Nov. 15, P-38F (431115) of 71FS, James A McClure, MACR 1306

Can't find any for the 17th

[Dan Johnson]

Just a tad bit of over-claiming by the Luftwaffe that day. The 82nd FG history actually mentions this as they lost no 38s despite the JG27 claims. The 14th FG were not involved and as mentioned the 1st FG lost one. That's it for possible 38 Groups involved.

Nothing on the 17th although again the Luftwaffe over claimed as the only loss was one B25 for the USAAF that day.

Interesting to note that the 38 Groups involved did not over claim. Somewhat amazing that the Luftwaffe claims were for 13-14 38s on the 15th and 5 on the 17th, when in fact 1 was lost. That's some seriously exaggerated claims.

[Dan Johnson]

Got me thinking. If Bartels was credited with 7 P38s when in fact only one was lost. Does that not put his claims under the microscope? That's even if you concede he got the one 38 that was lost, which considering the 19 claimed, was shot down by Bartels.

That's not a small discrepancy given he was credited with 7 kills over his own turf with all of them potentially phantom claims.

[Brian]

Hi guys

Just to add some fuel to the fire - I note that on 20 December 1943, when 100+ B-17s with an escort of 60+ P-38s raided Eleusis, 17 German fighters were claimed destroyed, plus 3 probables and 3 damaged, out of an attacking force estimated to have numbered 35.

I'm not aware of actual losses but do believe an element of overclaiming!

Cheers
Brian

[Juha]

Hello Brian
Hammel writes that the 14th FG escort pilots claimed 8 Bf 109s and a Fw 190. Ring gives only one III./JG 27 pilot KIA. Murawski agrees and adds that Fw. Dietz from 7./JG 27 was killed when B-17 gunners shot down his a/c. He adds that IV./JG 27 was temporary out of business because it was roughly handed by Spits on 17 Dec (3 KIA, one of them Kommandeur, who succeeded to bail out but was captured by partisans and later executed, and 2 MIA). III./ JG 27 claimed5 bombers and 2 P-38s on 20 Dec. I’m not greatly shocked to find out that USAAF fighters overclaimed in MTO, IMHO USAAF pilots got confirmation easier in MTO than in ETO in 1943-45 but 8 109s claimed by 38 pilots vs one shot down by bomber gunners is clearly worse than I’d have expected. Not sure was there other Axis S/E units save Stab/SG 3, which IIRC still had Ju87Ds, so I have no idea was the 190 also 109 or another type.

Juha

[Dan Johnson]

You'd expect more over claiming by the guys flying over the other guy's turf. Getting a look at a wreck on the ground is a bit tough in that situation. No one has ever denied there was over claiming.

The problem is Bartels and company were over their own turf and we've always been lead to believe that LW claims were meticulously documented and confirmed.

Clearly not the case if in a two day stretch they claim 19 P38s when in fact one was lost to flak.

[Juha]

Hello Dan
I agree and that 15-17th Nov 43 wasn’t only case when that happened, I recall at least one case in Italy. when LW overclaimed badly while combating over their own a/f.

On the 15 and 17 Nov cases, IV./JG 27 was a new unit, its CO had came from the position of the CO of 5./JG 3. So to a new unit in new environment as his first Kommandeur posting. Maybe those facts had something to do with its heavy overclaiming even if Kirchner was a nice man and excellent pilot.

And BTW Kirchner was in fact shot down by P-47s from 57th FG, on 17 Dec IV./JG 27 seems to have first a combat with Spits and then with 57th FG and it was during the latter when Kirschner was shot down.

And on 20 Dec at least part of the claims were made by pilots from 82nd FG which also lost 3 pilots as POWs. So III./JG 27 claims seemed to have been accurate at least against P-38s. Hammel’s book isn’t the best source but handy. I cannot check 14th FG claims/losses because database of armyairforce.com is down.

Juha