French WW2 decimal score aces

[Alfred.MONZAT]

Clostermann produced an official document giving his total score. It display 19 confirmed solo victories some probables and damaged (all are listed). The two DFC documents give each 11 and 12 victories (total 23) which are may be the 19 confirmed in the first place + 4 confirmed later (after crash site were found or things like that) or maybe includes the probables. Then, the French Air Force count the shared victories as complete victory whereas the RAF does not count them at all in general. So with 14 such victories, Clostermann tally for the Armée de l'Air is 33 (but this value should only be used to compare with tally established with the same method).

[focusfocus]

1°,27/07/43=Fw.190 S Trouville
2°,27/07/43=Fw.190 S Trouville
3°,27/08/43=Fw.190 St Pol-Mardyck
4°,15/06/44=Bf.109 St Andre de L'Eure
5°,26/06/44=Fw.190 Caen/Carpiquet
6°,29/06/44=Fw.190 N Rouen
7°,02/07/44=Fw.190 S Cabourg
8°,02/07/44=Fw.190 S Cabourg
9°,05/03/45=Bf.109 Nordhorn
10°,14/03/45=Bf.109 Hanovre
11°,28/03/45=Ju.88 (SHARED) Rheine Hopsten
12°,02/04/45=Fw.190 Aldhorn
13°,05/04/45=Ju.88 Wunstorf
14°,05/04/45=Bf.109 (SHARED) Lac Dummer
15°,05/04/45=Bf.109 (SHARED) Lac Dummer
16°,20/04/45=Ju.290 (SHARED) Skagerrac
17°,20/04/45=Fw.190 SE Hambourg
18°,20/04/45=Fw.190 SE Hambourg
19°,03/05/45=Fw.190 Kiel
20°,03/05/45=Ju.252 Grossembrode
21°,03/05/45=Do.24 Detroit Fenhmarn
22°,03/05/45=Do.24 Detroit Fenhmarn
23°,03/05/45=Bf.109 (SHARED) Grossembrode
24°,03/05/45=Fw.190(SHARED) Grossembrode

As you see it,this one is different from the one in Aces High,Tempest and typhoon Story,......

Michel

[focusfocus]

Hi all

This may help to understand some things.

That's what he says in an interwiew about his victories:

"When he leaves the RAF in august 1945,he claimed(HE CLAIMED) 23 vict.sures (individual or shared),BUT HE DOES NOT HAVE A RELIABLE LIST OF SUCCESSES,some of his claims having been credited differently by the RAF and FAFL."

Dixit himself.

Michel

[focusfocus]

I am attentive to the discussion and I add this:

To add a little more confusion,there is another picture of his tempest (NV724) with 21 black crosses and 7 white crosses! just after the war.

I agree with Peter,the list in Ace High (Shores) is the most plausible,the report of the different ORB (274,56,3° Sqd) are reliable sources.

The French with their counting system mixing victories "sures",individual,collective,probable,damaged contributed to this opacity,hence the multitude of contradictory lists.this is not the only case!!

Annouce 33 homologous victories is a figure that "speaks" more.

One thing to remember,my previous post #11 dixit himself.

Regards

michel

[Alfred.MONZAT]

The reliable list of success is the document I provided and the 23 victories came from the DFC documents, they are more than a claim but may be still erronous.

[PMoz99]

Thank you for the 2 lists Alfred. They are very much appreciated.
While Clostermann's list is similar to one in one of the links previously given, it is not the same. Straight away one can see the claims for 341Sq are 3 + 2 damaged on C's list, and 4 + 1 prob on the other.
Unfortunately, his list doesn't really help make the picture any clearer.
For the 11 kills listed for the DFC, Clostermann has 8 + 3 probables (all aerial). That includes 1 probable on 28/6/43 apparently not confirmed. As far as I can see, there is no other way to get 11 but to include the probables and unconfirmed.
For the 12 kills listed for the Bar, it is less clear. He lists 11 kills and 2 probables (all aerial). Of these, 5 are unconfirmed (3+2). The Bar record also states 70 missions, while the 11+2 was achieved in 73. So how to get a total of 12? Perhaps treat the Ju252 shot down on takeoff as OTG and you get 10 kills + 2 probables. But it seems probable some of these were scored in missions 71-73. Or should the 70 mentioned just be taken as an approximation?
BUT also, officially, 4 of the 11 "Bar" kills are recorded as OTG kills. So would Clostermann's list overrule the official records? When were those 4 officially listed as OTG kills? Immediately or later?
There is another interesting thing - Clostermann makes no mention of the Ju290 in his list, but it is mentioned in the note at the end. How can this be?
I will also point out that it seems Shores and Williams did have Clostermann's list when they reviewed the claims - they make reference to it in their notes. So they have considered all the information, applied their expertise, and come to a conclusion.
In my opinion, it just so happens their conclusion also makes most sense.
If someone has a better analysis, please let me know.
Peter

[Alfred.MONZAT]

When you say "unconfirmed", what's the source ?

Originally Posted by PMoz99

BUT also, officially, 4 of the 11 "Bar" kills are recorded as OTG kills. So would Clostermann's list overrule the official records? When were those 4 officially listed as OTG kills? Immediately or later?

That's the big question. It look like it was later, much later. Clostermann claims may have been re-examined after one or another controversial speech.

Originally Posted by PMoz99

There is another interesting thing - Clostermann makes no mention of the Ju290 in his list, but it is mentioned in the note at the end. How can this be?

The victories listed at the end are shared ones.

Originally Posted by PMoz99

In my opinion, it just so happens their conclusion also makes most sense.
If someone has a better analysis, please let me know.

There's documents that mention 19 confirmed solo victories + 3-4 probables. They may have some issues but I doubt his real total would be that different. And I wonder how many pilots got their tally retroactively reduced by no less than 8 victories without them being informed (Clostermann had combat reports of all his victories and the mention OTG was not present, therefor a later add). The ones "changed" to "unconfirmed" may be geniune (I'll wait for your answer on that), the OTG ones are not IMHO.

[focusfocus]

Hi Peter

Sorry,I don't have a date:the picture is in the French Magazine "AVIONS" n°138 (sept.2004)

Out of curiosity,I tried to match his claims (1°to 7°-8°) with his potential victims.

Result
27/07/43= only one (I/JG2- crash Gonneville/mer or 2/JG2-crash Annebault) and maybe shared with Fl.Martel and Sgt Bruno of 341°Sqd.
overclaiming of 341°Sqd=150%

27/08/43= 3/JG26 crash St Nicolas or I/JG26 crash Nieuwepoort
485°Sqd claimed also one......shared?

15/06/44=no Bf.109 lost (St-andré de l'eure) III/JG3 based there....no losses recorded.

26/06/44=no Fw.190 lost (Caen/Carpiquet)

29/06/44=no Fw.190 lost (nord rouen)

2/07/44= only one-maybe 3/JG26 (17432) Lt Nink....shared with others pilots?

Michel

[rof120]

IMPORTANT

About French aces (not Clostermann) please email me as soon as possible at:

rof700@bluewin.ch


Repeat: it's important.

Thanks in advance.

rof120