The confirmation of air victories of top Allied aces by LW sources?

[GuerraCivil]

Some of the records of German aces have been verified to great detail from the loss records of the Allied - I can think for example Marseille and some nightfighter aces - but how about the opposite?

How detailed has been the verification of the air victory claims of top Allied aces (like Ivan Kozhedub) by Luftwaffe´s losses and other LW records? Who are the "verified" top Allied aces when it comes to shooting down German aircraft?

[Paul Thompson]

Hello GuerraCivil,

I think the short and rather unpromising answer is that there are few people like Theo Boiten, Chris Shores and Kari Stenman around Yuriy Rybin has done research on Soviet claims in the Arctic, but there has not been much written on this subject from a Soviet / Russian perspective. Part of the reason that I research losses at a strategic and operational level is because tactical-level data is so very difficult to collect and analyse, even for those who have decades of experience in the subject.

Regards,

Paul

[Edward L. Hsiao]

To GuerraCivil,

That's a very good question! For a long time I suspected that Ivan Kozhedub's 62 air-to-air victories over the Eastern Front to not be believed at all. Plenty of his claims over the Luftwaffe hasn't really been verified by the Luftwaffe loss records. For the USAAF fighter pilots who fought against the Luftwaffe over Germany and claimed ten or more victories(especially with 5 air-to-air kills in one mission),well plenty of their of their claims can't be matched by the real losses in the Luftwaffe loss records. Just my thought!

Sincerely,

Edward L. Hsiao

[GuerraCivil]

While true that combat victory stats are very difficult to verify the "top aces" are interesting case studies and they have been indeed studied:

The wiki seems to show quite good analysis of Johnie Johnson´s record:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johnni...n_(RAF_officer)

Similar analysis seems to have been made on the claims of Aleksander Pokryshin: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Pokryshkin

At least both men seem to fit very comfortably to "verified ace" category! (with more than 5 air victories confirmed or likely by enemy records)

Gabby Gabreski was the top US ace in Europe, but I wonder if they have made any studies to check his record? I guess that Gabreski flew more combat missions than "average" USAAF fighter pilot in Europe and even after critical checking of his air victories Gabreski will likely remain as a top US ace in Europe during WW2...

A minor case but perhaps interesting: Pavel Kutakhov (long time C-in-C of Soviet Air Force) was credited with 13 air victories (individual) + 28 shared (!) in WW2. IIRC, of his individual victories 5 could be verified by German records - so he did make it an "ace" but perhaps with a overclaiming ratio of some 2,5:1 (+ shared ones). Rather "normal overclaim" ratio in WW2?

[Andrey Kuznetsov]

Originally Posted by GuerraCivil

Similar analysis seems to have been made on the claims of Aleksander Pokryshin: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Pokryshkin

It isn't analysis, it is a fantasy.

Originally Posted by GuerraCivil

How detailed has been the verification of the air victory claims of top Allied aces (like Ivan Kozhedub) by Luftwaffe´s losses and other LW records?

As for East front, too little info has remained from Luftwaffe (especially for 1944) for such verification. Analysis of some episodes is possible, nothing more.

[Broncazonk]

I wonder what percentage of USAAF claims are documented by gun camera footage.

[David N]

Originally Posted by GuerraCivil

Some of the records of German aces have been verified to great detail from the loss records of the Allied - I can think for example Marseille and some nightfighter aces - but how about the opposite?

How detailed has been the verification of the air victory claims of top Allied aces (like Ivan Kozhedub) by Luftwaffe´s losses and other LW records? Who are the "verified" top Allied aces when it comes to shooting down German aircraft?

With the exception of Von Richthofen, Marseille's claims have probably been scrutinized more than any other fighter pilot. He over claimed after his big day of September 1, 1942 (of his 17 claims, 12 crashed or crash landed), but until then he was a reliable claimer. This was the judgement of his latest biographer.

[Juha]

Originally Posted by David N

With the exception of Von Richthofen, Marseille's claims have probably been scrutinized more than any other fighter pilot. He over claimed after his big day of September 1, 1942 (of his 17 claims, 12 crashed or crash landed), but until then he was a reliable claimer. This was the judgement of his latest biographer.

In fact 12 real losses out of 17 claims still indicates reliable claiming even if H-J was even more reliable claimer earlier. And if you mean Colin D. Heaton's & Anne-Marie Lewis' book it has some problems.

Juha

[David N]

Originally Posted by Juha

In fact 12 real losses out of 17 claims still indicates reliable claiming even if H-J was even more reliable claimer earlier. And if you mean Colin D. Heaton's & Anne-Marie Lewis' book it has some problems.

Juha

According to Christopher Shores in Fighters Over the Desert, HJM was accurate in his claims until the last month or so. Yes, 12 out of 17 claims is a good ratio. Shores implied that after his 17 claim day on September 1, Marseille believed everything he fired at went down.

[Edward L. Hsiao]

Gentlemen,

The USAAF fighter pilots over Europe sometimes counted their kills even without firing a single shot. An unusual story about Chuck Yeager scoring five kills in one mission by shooting down two Bf-109s and causing the other three to collide with each other! A tall tale if you ask me!

Sincerely,

Edward L. Hsiao