The confirmation of air victories of top Allied aces by LW sources?

[David N]

Originally Posted by GuerraCivil

Some of the records of German aces have been verified to great detail from the loss records of the Allied - I can think for example Marseille and some nightfighter aces - but how about the opposite?

How detailed has been the verification of the air victory claims of top Allied aces (like Ivan Kozhedub) by Luftwaffe´s losses and other LW records? Who are the "verified" top Allied aces when it comes to shooting down German aircraft?

With the exception of Von Richthofen, Marseille's claims have probably been scrutinized more than any other fighter pilot. He over claimed after his big day of September 1, 1942 (of his 17 claims, 12 crashed or crash landed), but until then he was a reliable claimer. This was the judgement of his latest biographer.

[Juha]

Originally Posted by David N

With the exception of Von Richthofen, Marseille's claims have probably been scrutinized more than any other fighter pilot. He over claimed after his big day of September 1, 1942 (of his 17 claims, 12 crashed or crash landed), but until then he was a reliable claimer. This was the judgement of his latest biographer.

In fact 12 real losses out of 17 claims still indicates reliable claiming even if H-J was even more reliable claimer earlier. And if you mean Colin D. Heaton's & Anne-Marie Lewis' book it has some problems.

Juha

[David N]

Originally Posted by Juha

In fact 12 real losses out of 17 claims still indicates reliable claiming even if H-J was even more reliable claimer earlier. And if you mean Colin D. Heaton's & Anne-Marie Lewis' book it has some problems.

Juha

According to Christopher Shores in Fighters Over the Desert, HJM was accurate in his claims until the last month or so. Yes, 12 out of 17 claims is a good ratio. Shores implied that after his 17 claim day on September 1, Marseille believed everything he fired at went down.

[Edward L. Hsiao]

Gentlemen,

The USAAF fighter pilots over Europe sometimes counted their kills even without firing a single shot. An unusual story about Chuck Yeager scoring five kills in one mission by shooting down two Bf-109s and causing the other three to collide with each other! A tall tale if you ask me!

Sincerely,

Edward L. Hsiao

[Boomerang]

Edward:

The Chuck Yeager mission you refer to appears to be discussed in Don Caldwell's JG 26 War Diary. Caldwell states that, on 12 October 1944, Yeager claimed three Bf 109s shot down, plus two whose pilots bailed out when Yeager got on their tails. You might want to look at Caldwell's account.

Cheers

Don W

[mars]

Originally Posted by Juha

In fact 12 real losses out of 17 claims still indicates reliable claiming even if H-J was even more reliable claimer earlier. And if you mean Colin D. Heaton's & Anne-Marie Lewis' book it has some problems.

Juha

The problem was of course Marseille was not the only Axis pilots who made the claims that day. other than him:
6/JG 27 Oblt Rudolf Sinner 2 P-40s
Stab II/JG 27 Gustav Rodel: 1 P-40
I/JG 27 Hans Remmer: 1 P-40
7/JG 27 Fw Walter Fink: 1 Spitfire
1/JG 27 Obfw Gunther Steinhausen 1 Hurricance
2/JG 27 Lt Hans-Anold Stahlschmidt 2 Hurricance
2/JG 27 Karl von Lieres und Wilkau 1 Hurricance

Italians also claimed 5 P-40s and 3 spitfires

[Broncazonk]

I've been reading John B. Lundstrom's, The First Team and the Guadalcanal Campaign : Naval Fighter Combat from August to November 1942 which is superlative. (I read it cover to cover, and then immediately began reading it again.)

Lundstrom studied Japanese after-action reports for every day of the campaign (including Eastern Solomons and Santa Cruz) and compared Japanese aerial combat victory claims against actual American losses. He also studied American after-action reports for every day of the campaign (including Eastern Solomons and Santa Cruz) and compared American aerial combat victory claims against actual Japanese losses.

BUY THIS BOOK.

It's absolutely shocking--the documented Japanese over-claiming in particular--to the point that the constant, daily, every single mission 5x and even 10x over-claiming had (in my opinion) a significant effect on the outcome of the entire Solomons campaign.

Bronc

[Juha]

Originally Posted by Broncazonk

I've been reading John B. Lundstrom's, The First Team and the Guadalcanal Campaign : Naval Fighter Combat from August to November 1942 which is superlative. (I read it cover to cover, and then immediately began reading it again.)

Lundstrom studied Japanese after-action reports for every day of the campaign (including Eastern Solomons and Santa Cruz) and compared Japanese aerial combat victory claims against actual American losses. He also studied American after-action reports for every day of the campaign (including Eastern Solomons and Santa Cruz) and compared American aerial combat victory claims against actual Japanese losses.

BUY THIS BOOK.

It's absolutely shocking--the documented Japanese over-claiming in particular--to the point that the constant, daily, every single mission 5x and even 10x over-claiming had (in my opinion) a significant effect on the outcome of the entire Solomons campaign.

Bronc

Yes, Lundstrom's books are excellent, I bought my copy of The First Team and the Guadalcanal Campaign a decade or two ago because his earlier The First Team: Pacific Naval Air Combat from Pearl Harbor to Midway was so good.

Juha

[Paul Thompson]

Originally Posted by Broncazonk

It's absolutely shocking--the documented Japanese over-claiming in particular--to the point that the constant, daily, every single mission 5x and even 10x over-claiming had (in my opinion) a significant effect on the outcome of the entire Solomons campaign.

Bronc

Hello Bronc,

As you can see from Lundstrom’s book, claims are an unreliable statistic As for the effect of this on the campaign, I am less certain. The Japanese lost air superiority because they did not have enough trained aircrew and good aircraft to decisively win the carrier battles. They might have been able to hang on for an extended period even without a carrier victory, had they been able to knock out US aviation on Guadalcanal. However, that would have required very close cooperation between surface ships and the land-based air forces, which was almost impossible because of the low quality and quantity of Japanese radios. The US victory in the Pacific was over-determined after Midway, the problems encountered during the Guadalcanal campaign can be exaggerated.

Regards,

Paul

[NickM]

Originally Posted by Broncazonk

I've been reading John B. Lundstrom's, The First Team and the Guadalcanal Campaign : Naval Fighter Combat from August to November 1942 which is superlative. (I read it cover to cover, and then immediately began reading it again.)

Lundstrom studied Japanese after-action reports for every day of the campaign (including Eastern Solomons and Santa Cruz) and compared Japanese aerial combat victory claims against actual American losses. He also studied American after-action reports for every day of the campaign (including Eastern Solomons and Santa Cruz) and compared American aerial combat victory claims against actual Japanese losses.

BUY THIS BOOK.

It's absolutely shocking--the documented Japanese over-claiming in particular--to the point that the constant, daily, every single mission 5x and even 10x over-claiming had (in my opinion) a significant effect on the outcome of the entire Solomons campaign.

Bronc

Got both of Lundstrom's books & enjoyed them both. I have to point out RE: the Japanese tendency to overclaim: I think it's similar to Italian fighter pilot issues: Their (Japan & Italy) aircraft are light & maneuverable & to a certain extent underarmed--and the pilots tend to practice an individualistic combat style--and allied fighters are often well armored/protected.

When they fire on, say a wildcat or a tomahawk, the first thing the allied pilot is going to do is DIVE at full throttle & then probably try to climb back into the fight. That diving, smoking plane is probably going to be the basis of several 'kill claims'. I think during Lundstrom's recounting of the Coral Sea Battles, he opined on at least one occasion a Wildcat pilot tangled with zeros in three separate dogfights on the same mission. No doubt he got claimed as shot down by all of them.