Danish Airman ?

[Martin Gleeson]

Hallo to all, especially Mikkel !

A 'Mr. Pay' was co-pilot of an RAF Mitchell bomber (FL214) which force-landed in Ireland on 4 July 1942. Irish Defence Forces records on this incident are not complete unfortunately. His Christian names or nationality were not recorded. He was in in civilian clothes and gave his address as 'Mount Royal Hotel, Montreal, Canada'. The crew of 4 were uninjured and soon released.

My colleague Dennis Burke obtained some Ferry Command records on Pay from the Canadian DHH. These show he was Lief Kaare Pay. No nationality was mentioned but he had 1,170 flying hours prior to joining RAF Ferry Command. He received his flight check on 8 June 1942 and made his first ferry flight later that month, also a Mitchell to the UK. In total he flew 25 ferry trips for Ferry Command from June 1942 to March 1945. His rank throughout is noted as 'First Officer'.

Dennis has also found two references to him on the website of the National Archives of Australia. The index there show him entering Australia by ship in 1932, and later in January 1942 by BOAC flying-boat. He is described as Danish and was born on 24 may 1906.

Can anyone please confirm that he was Danish ? Also was he indeed a civilian pilot in RAF Ferry Command ? Naturally any other information would be most welcome.

Regards,

Martin Gleeson.

[Mikkel Plannthin]

Excellent Martin,
I have been waiting for this all night :-)

I do not know the man, but I think we can confirm his nationality as Danish. The US Immigration records has about 10 records on him - the latest during the war on 13 April 1945 and they all state his nationality as danish. He arrives in California on 8 March 1942 from Malaysia and then I can find 5-6 crossings Scotland-New York and 2-3 from Morocco.

Looks like he lives in London after the war, but also that he own an estate in Denmark from 1939-1970.

He is not among the pilots trained by the Norwegians in Canada.

His name is - I am pretty sure - Leif, and not, Lief as this is a fairly common Danish name.

More to follow...

Mikkel

[Martin Gleeson]

Hallo Mikkel,

Thanks for your help. This is really interesting. 'Our' man was somewhat of a 'wandering albatross', a world-wide traveller !

I believe you are correct about his name. The Canadian record has 'Lief', but the Australian website shows 'Leif'.

The Canadian information also shows that his ferry deliveries included 4 trips to Cairo or the Middle East and another 6 to India, all flying Liberators. This would probably explain the crossings from Morocco.

Looking forward to learning more about him.

Regards,

Martin.

[Mikkel Plannthin]

I have been looking closer at the mentioned records:

• Arrives on 8 Mar 1942 in San Francisco, California from Sydney, Australia (M/S Parrakoola, occupation stated as pilot, but no indication to being in Transport Command; last permanent address in Malaya)
• Arrives on 12 Jun 1943 in New York from Gourock, Scotland (Queen Elizabeth, record states Ferry Pilot)
• Crosses the border from Canada to U.S. arriving on 28 Dec 1943 in Niagara Falls, New York, USA,
• Arrives on 7 Mar 1944 in New York from Casablanca, Morocco (by plane)
• Arrives on 27 Jun 1944 in New York from Casablanca, Morocco (by plane)
• Arrives on 25 Sep 1944 in New York from Gourock, Scotland (Nieuw Amsterdam)
• Arrives on 19 Nov 1944 in New York from Greenock, Scotland (Queen Mary
  Arrives on 13 Apr 1945 in New York from Gourock, Scotland (Queen Elizabeth) (45 (T) Transport Group)

Throughout the records different values for "relatives" are given, e.g. official Transport Command adresses, Danish Consulate, and a friend in London (at the Bath Club). On the border crossing record his father Carl, living in Sweden is mentioned. Unfortunately I cannot read the name of the town.

Mikkel

P.S. The ownership of the estate in Denmark is 1939-1942 (and not -1970), which makes more sense

[Mikkel Plannthin]

I might add, that I did not find him in a list of Danish pilots - military as well as commercial - of appr. 1940.

Mikkel

[dp_burke]

Hey chaps,
ancestry.co.uk does indeed have one or more L K Pay's listed in the old phone books postwar up to the 1970's.
I might have to take out a subscription after all!

regards

Dennis
Where do the US border crossing records come from again? Seen about them before.

[Mikkel Plannthin]

Dennis,
My info is from an ancestry subscription, so I can provide the information.

Mikkel

[Mikkel Plannthin]

More information found today:

Leif Kaare Pay is born on 24 May 1906 in Copenhagen, Denmark. I have tried to get hold of the registration of his birth and/or baptism and the 1906 Census registration for the family. Both without luck so far.

He is the son of Carl Marius Pay (b. 10 February 1866) and Ellen Pay (b. 13 August 1882). His father born in Kristiania (Oslo) in Norway. He sets up a business, Pay & Ko., in Copenhagen in 1895 and is from 1913 the Norwegian consul-general in Copenhagen, Denmark. In the late 1910’s the father owns for short periods of time different country estates: ‘Bangsbo’ near Frederikshavn from 1917-1919, ‘Baggesvogn’ in the parish of Sindal in 1918, and ‘Højris’ on the island of Mors 1918-1922. It is not clear to me whether the family actually lives in one or more of these places or if they were purchases as investments, though.

I have yet to establish the whereabouts of the family during the 1920’s, but as we know Leif Kaare Pay arrives in Australia in 1932. This record may reveal the intended length of the stay.

He buys the country estate 'Gammelgaard' in the parish of Ryde in 1939, but sells it in the end of 1941 (new owner takes over the property on 1 January 1942). Then we know he is arrives in Australia once again in 1942 and is attached to the RAF Training Command.

In 1950 he buys a country estate once again; 'Tygesminde', parish of Sønder Stenderup. He is referred to as Kaptajn (i.e. Captain) Leif Kaare Pay. He sells the estate in 1957.

This corresponds well with entries of a L K Pay in the British Phone directory, West Middlesex, during the period 1956-1981.

(Sources: Trap, J. P., Danmark, 1955; Krak’s Vejviser, 1906; Krak's Blå Bog (= Who’s Who), 1918 and ancestry.co.uk)

I think it is safe to say, that he is Danish. I would presume, that something could have been written about him in the newspapers, but have not been around to checking this yet.

Regards
Mikkel

PS. Dennis, border crossing records - Canada to US - is part of the U.S. immigration records and accessible torugh ancestry.co.uk.

[dp_burke]

Thanks Mikkel,

I finally caved in and bought a subscription today!! Wow, the lists of ferry men are amazing. I found lots of names I wanted.

Martin, watch your inbox.
And great info on L K Pay, Mikkel, I'll be quiet now!!

Dennis

[Martin Gleeson]

Hallo Mikkel and Dennis,

That is wonderful information on Pay. Many thanks

If he arrived in Sydney, Australia by BOAC on 15 January 1942 I suspect it is most unlikely that he was in Denmark at "the end of 1941". He may have been already out of the country when the Germans invaded in April 1940, or escaped/left soon afterwards. He probably had his family in Denmark, or his legal representatives, sell his estate. Speculation, I know.

No indication so far of him joining any armed service. I will try to obtain the two digital records held in Australia concerning his entry into that country.

Regard for now and thanks again.

Martin.