Italian vs Luftwaffe

[focusfocus]

Hello

Several italian planes of the Co-Belligerent Air Force were shot down by the Luftwaffe in 1943/1944.

1):three Cant Z.506 seaplanes (141° Squadriglia) on 18/09/43 ?

2):three Re-2002 ,one Ju.52 and a Bf.109 on 22 or 24/10/43 ?

Someone has more information? german and italian unity?

thanks in advance

michel
best regards

[Laurent Rizzotti]

According to http://www.alieuomini.it/AJAX/catalo...2_catalogo/20/, the Cant 506 of 141a Squadriglia were engaged in evacuating wounded from Corfu from 16 September.

This webpage confirm three losses, but one each on 18, 19 and 21 September. All three were lost to Luftwaffe but is not clear if they were shot down or destroyed on the water, except for the last one (on the 21st) that was destroyed on the water for sure. There was no crew casualty in all three cases.

For the second part of your question, read http://www.alieuomini.it/catalogo/de...ariete,49.html
Two Re 2002 were lost off Albania and Greece on 18 and 19 September, but it is not clear why. On the 24th, a Re 2002 pilot claimed two Ju 87s shot down

As for the Ju 52, I know that one was claimed by an Italian pilot on 1 November 1943 over Albania.
http://surfcity.kund.dalnet.se/italy_martinoli.htm

The only claims in the Tony wood files against Italian aircraft in September-October 1943 are the three of Oblt Wolfgang Ernst of 9./JG 77 on 11 September 1943, against a Cant 1007 and two Breda 88. I have not the Prien's JFV book for this period that will be more recent and may confirm or infirm that.

Re 2002 were fighter-bombers so were probably lost to Flak. The Z.506 could have been shot down by any Luftwaffe aircraft on the other hand (Ju 87, bombers, ...) or strafed/bombed on the water

Best regards

[Laurent Rizzotti]

Some more details on Italian activity and German losses:
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtop...1600&p=1626655

[Kutscha]

Laurent, I am interested in the Ba. 88 claims. Afaik they had been retired before 1943.

[focusfocus]

Thanks Laurent and "Bonne Année 2017" from France for all

Well, it seems that my source (F.D'amico and G.Valentini) is false.
Apart from the Cant Z.1007 (14/5/44),no other italian Co-Belligerent seems to have been victims of german fighters: no victories by the JG27 don't correspond to meadows or far.

michel

best regards

[alessandro bray]

Hallo,
apart from the attack on the Cant 1007 on 14.05.44 by JG27, other occasions of Luftwaffe air to air victories are:

on 11.09.1943 Oblt Wolfgand Ernst claimed 2 Ba88 and 1 Cant Z1007 at 10.30 10.33 and 10.40 near La Maddalena (Sardegna). Real italian losses 2 SM79 of 278. Squadriaglia AS and 1 Cant Z1007.

on 23.10.1943 3 Spitfire claimed by Hpm J. Kirschner (2) and Fw H. Bartels around 13.00 over Albania , 2 Re2002 of 258.Squadriglia shot down (Ten Bassi MIA, Cap D'Ottaviano KIA). A good account of this engagement is in Boris Ciglic excellent "Messerschmitt Bf109 The Yugoslav Story".

on 3.04.1944 a Cant1007 of 88. Gruppo was shot down over Podgorica, claimed by Hpm Bruesl NaGr12 as Fiat Br20 (and this is correctly reported in d'Amico-Valentini Regia Aeronautica vol2)
ciao
Alessandro

[Nick Hector]

Originally Posted by alessandro bray

Hallo,
apart from the attack on the Cant 1007 on 14.05.44 by JG27, other occasions of Luftwaffe air to air victories are:

on 11.09.1943 Oblt Wolfgand Ernst claimed 2 Ba88 and 1 Cant Z1007 at 10.30 10.33 and 10.40 near La Maddalena (Sardegna). Real italian losses 2 SM79 of 278. Squadriaglia AS and 1 Cant Z1007.

on 23.10.1943 3 Spitfire claimed by Hpm J. Kirschner (2) and Fw H. Bartels around 13.00 over Albania , 2 Re2002 of 258.Squadriglia shot down (Ten Bassi MIA, Cap D'Ottaviano KIA). A good account of this engagement is in Boris Ciglic excellent "Messerschmitt Bf109 The Yugoslav Story".

on 3.04.1944 a Cant1007 of 88. Gruppo was shot down over Podgorica, claimed by Hpm Bruesl NaGr12 as Fiat Br20 (and this is correctly reported in d'Amico-Valentini Regia Aeronautica vol2)
ciao
Alessandro

Hi gents,

http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=29709

listed Serg. Aldrovandi's Re2002 as also hit during the engagement between 258 Squadriglia and Bartels + Kirschner. Can anyone provide further details (e.g. serials and crew fates) of the SM79 of 278. Squadriaglia AS and 1 Cant Z1007 involved in the Wolfgang Ernst engagement?

Nick

[alessandro bray]

Hallo,

the 2 SM79s were piloted by sottotenete Giuseppe Coci and by tenente Ottone Sponza (both survived)

ciao

Alessandro

[focusfocus]

Great,great,Super Alessandro.

very good information!
I really have everything wrong!!
not really an expert (Ernst) in identification:SM 79 for Ba 88
With a little luck ( let's be crazy !),a precise idea about the identity of the Cant Z 1007.

thanks

michel

[Kutscha]

Thank you alessandro.