Italian vs Luftwaffe

[focusfocus]

Hello

Several italian planes of the Co-Belligerent Air Force were shot down by the Luftwaffe in 1943/1944.

1):three Cant Z.506 seaplanes (141° Squadriglia) on 18/09/43 ?

2):three Re-2002 ,one Ju.52 and a Bf.109 on 22 or 24/10/43 ?

Someone has more information? german and italian unity?

thanks in advance

michel
best regards

[Laurent Rizzotti]

According to http://www.alieuomini.it/AJAX/catalo...2_catalogo/20/, the Cant 506 of 141a Squadriglia were engaged in evacuating wounded from Corfu from 16 September.

This webpage confirm three losses, but one each on 18, 19 and 21 September. All three were lost to Luftwaffe but is not clear if they were shot down or destroyed on the water, except for the last one (on the 21st) that was destroyed on the water for sure. There was no crew casualty in all three cases.

For the second part of your question, read http://www.alieuomini.it/catalogo/de...ariete,49.html
Two Re 2002 were lost off Albania and Greece on 18 and 19 September, but it is not clear why. On the 24th, a Re 2002 pilot claimed two Ju 87s shot down

As for the Ju 52, I know that one was claimed by an Italian pilot on 1 November 1943 over Albania.
http://surfcity.kund.dalnet.se/italy_martinoli.htm

The only claims in the Tony wood files against Italian aircraft in September-October 1943 are the three of Oblt Wolfgang Ernst of 9./JG 77 on 11 September 1943, against a Cant 1007 and two Breda 88. I have not the Prien's JFV book for this period that will be more recent and may confirm or infirm that.

Re 2002 were fighter-bombers so were probably lost to Flak. The Z.506 could have been shot down by any Luftwaffe aircraft on the other hand (Ju 87, bombers, ...) or strafed/bombed on the water

Best regards

[Laurent Rizzotti]

Some more details on Italian activity and German losses:
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtop...1600&p=1626655

[Kutscha]

Laurent, I am interested in the Ba. 88 claims. Afaik they had been retired before 1943.

[focusfocus]

Thanks Laurent and "Bonne Année 2017" from France for all

Well, it seems that my source (F.D'amico and G.Valentini) is false.
Apart from the Cant Z.1007 (14/5/44),no other italian Co-Belligerent seems to have been victims of german fighters: no victories by the JG27 don't correspond to meadows or far.

michel

best regards

[alessandro bray]

Hallo,
apart from the attack on the Cant 1007 on 14.05.44 by JG27, other occasions of Luftwaffe air to air victories are:

on 11.09.1943 Oblt Wolfgand Ernst claimed 2 Ba88 and 1 Cant Z1007 at 10.30 10.33 and 10.40 near La Maddalena (Sardegna). Real italian losses 2 SM79 of 278. Squadriaglia AS and 1 Cant Z1007.

on 23.10.1943 3 Spitfire claimed by Hpm J. Kirschner (2) and Fw H. Bartels around 13.00 over Albania , 2 Re2002 of 258.Squadriglia shot down (Ten Bassi MIA, Cap D'Ottaviano KIA). A good account of this engagement is in Boris Ciglic excellent "Messerschmitt Bf109 The Yugoslav Story".

on 3.04.1944 a Cant1007 of 88. Gruppo was shot down over Podgorica, claimed by Hpm Bruesl NaGr12 as Fiat Br20 (and this is correctly reported in d'Amico-Valentini Regia Aeronautica vol2)
ciao
Alessandro

[focusfocus]

Great,great,Super Alessandro.

very good information!
I really have everything wrong!!
not really an expert (Ernst) in identification:SM 79 for Ba 88
With a little luck ( let's be crazy !),a precise idea about the identity of the Cant Z 1007.

thanks

michel

[Kutscha]

Thank you alessandro.

[Brian]

Sorry to hi-jack this very interesting post, but has anything ever come to light about the shooting down of a supposed Co-Belligerent SM82 by Spitfires of 253Squadron on 7 April 1944? If not an SM82, what was it?

I know this query has been posted before, and investigated by some of our Italian experts, but it still remains a mystery!

Cheers
Brian

[fabriziogttf]

Hello,
some other data concerning LW losses during air-to-air clashes between Regia Aeronutica and Luftwaffe:
13/09/1943, off Rhodes, Ju88 4U+HK of 2.(F)/123, shot down by a C202 (pilot Morganti) of 396^Sqd/CLIV Grp CT, see [3], page 29
22/09/1943, between Suda-Phaleron, Ar196 D1+AH of 1./SAG126, shot down by a Z501 of 147^ Sqd RM, see [3], page 55
25/09/1943, off Corfu, Bf109G of IV/JG27, shot down by a C205 (Annoni) of 4 Stm CT, see [1], page 87
23/10/1943, Podgoritza, Bf109G of 9./III/JG27, shot down by Re2002 of 5 Stm CT , see [1], page 108 and Ju53/3m (w.nr. 7616/G6+LS) of II/TG 4, shot down by C205 (pilots Ferrazani and Bladelli), of 4 Stm CT see [1], page 108 and http://mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/...ses/losses.htm (website no more accessible): according to the latter source, the plane was MIA on transport flight Belgrade – Podgorica.
01/11/1943, Podgoritza, Bf109G6 of 11./JG27, shot down by C205 of 4 Stm CT , see [1], page 109 and Ju53/3m (w.nr. 3224) of II/TG 4, shot down by C205 (pilot Martinoli), of 4 Stm CT see [1], page 109 and http://mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/...ses/losses.htm (website no more accessible): according to the latter source, the plane is given as strafed and destroyed.
14/05/1944, NW of Lecce (Southern Italy), two Bf109G6 of JG27, shot down during the clash with Cant Z 1007bis of 88. Gruppo TN, see [2], page 5 (see also [4], page 364

Regards

Fabrizio

References:
[1] Arena, N. La Regia Aeronautica, Vol. I
[2] Arena, N. La Regia Aeronautica, Vol. II
[3] Cull, B. Fighters over the Aegean
[4] Roba, J.L., Pegg, M. Jadgwaffe, Vol. 4, The Mediterranean, 1943-1945