Dresden casualties and an Atom bomb target?

[Jon]

Just finished reading Frederick Taylors superb book "Dresden"
I am still puzzled though, since the end of the Cold War we now have many more details on the raid and the book indicates caualties between 25,000 and 200,000+. I have always though the human losses were about the 40,000 region...do we now have true figures?
The book also claims that it was the target city for the Atom Bomb if the war in Europe had continued, do we know if this is true and how close it came to getting a green light, i appreciate the Atom bomb was not ready until 1945.
Certainly loooks to have been a well planned and carried out raid demonstrating to the approaching Russians what RAF bomber command was capable of of doing to a single city in one night.

[Ruy Horta]

It may very well have been the culmination of a (runaway) process.

You can't expect a weapon as Bomber Command to simply stop a strategy even when such a strategy is little more than kicking a dead horse.

Dresden was a virgin target in a target poor enviorment, that alone was sufficient reason to stage a late war raid. Bomber Command leadership being dedicated to following its main strategy to the end.

A more tactical deployment would probably have saved more allied lives in the end, but that would not have found favor with the air minded strategist at all.

If anything these late war bombings were a demonstration to the own team, to guarantee a strong position in the post war armed forces. The strategic airmen were bombing the hell out of Germany in 1945 to show that their's was the war winning arm.

[Jon]

Hello Ruy,
I agree totally that the raid from a war winning aim was pointless, however i think it was more aimed at stopping the war running over against the Soviets after the soon to be German surrender. From a bombing point of view the raid is fascinating, it was only one in a long run of RAF city busting raids but, unfortunatley for the Dresdeners it all came together with ideal weather conditions on that night.
I still would like to know the new ideas on losses in the city

[FalkeEins]

.. what is the point of this thread ...aside from inviting an almighty row..if you've read Taylor's book then you're not going to get any 'fresh' arguments here...

[Jon]

Why am i inviting a row? who is after an argument?
I have asked several legitimate questions that the book did not answer fully and i was wondering if any members on here had new information as the network of people and knowledge through this site is vast.
If you feel their is no point to this thread then can i suggest you do not answer it.
Regards
Jon

[Laurent Rizzotti]

I don't think something like true figures will ever be determined for the Dresden bombing. Hundred of thousands of people (mostly German refugees, but also soldiers, Allied POWs, forced workers, concentration camps prisoners... in 1945 more than 10% of people in Germany weren't German, and their fate is even less recorded than Germans) disapperead in the late month of war, and it will be impossible to find most of them, so allowing any people with an idea behind their mind to give any number about the "body count" in Dresden.

It seems to me that 35 000 dead is now the casualty figure accepted by the most of the "serious" German historians as the most probable.

By the way, most raids in 1945 in Eastern Germany had seen for long the numbers of dead artificially inflated by Soviet or communists, that counted with the raid casualties people that died in the ground battle when Red Army invaded the area. For example, Postdam in April 1945 where the raid casualty figure was reduced from 5000 to 1500. Another example is the USAAF raid on Berlin in early February 1945, often cited as having done 25000 dead and that probably did only 10% of this number.

[Jon]

Hi Laurent
Thanks for this answer, much appreciated.

[Franek Grabowski]

Originally Posted by Laurent Rizzotti

By the way, most raids in 1945 in Eastern Germany had seen for long the numbers of dead artificially inflated by Soviet or communists, that counted with the raid casualties people that died in the ground battle when Red Army invaded the area. For example, Postdam in April 1945 where the raid casualty figure was reduced from 5000 to 1500. Another example is the USAAF raid on Berlin in early February 1945, often cited as having done 25000 dead and that probably did only 10% of this number.

Indeed, and the same occured with other losses, eg. Soviets claimed 4,5 million people killed in Auschwitz-Birkenau. This propaganda figure was only quite recently reduced to confirmed and much more realistic about 1,5 million. The others did it as well, eg. Germans exagerrated number of bodies found at Katyn (actually 'overclaimed bodies' were at another locations and recovered only a few years ago), another accepted number being I believe 2 millions expulsed Germans, the number coming from Churchill's speach.
The one must take any such numbers with extreme caution.

[Jens]

Originally Posted by Laurent Rizzotti

By the way, most raids in 1945 in Eastern Germany had seen for long the numbers of dead artificially inflated by Soviet or communists, that counted with the raid casualties people that died in the ground battle when Red Army invaded the area. For example, Postdam in April 1945 where the raid casualty figure was reduced from 5000 to 1500. Another example is the USAAF raid on Berlin in early February 1945, often cited as having done 25000 dead and that probably did only 10% of this number.

Sorry but this seems not to be true. The number of the Berlin raid was inflated by the Nazis by the factor 10.
The same is about Dresden. The original police report (after the raids in February) gives a number of "only" 25.000 dead people. Later someone (most probably from Goebbels) add a 0. The official number in the GDR was 35.000 dead people.
So what is the origin of these numbers? Around 25.000 bodies and parts of bodies were found in Dresden after the raids. These were buried at different sites in Dresden and counted. After the war there existed a myth about the high temperatures in the town made people burning so complete with no traces. So the GDR added around 10.000 dead people couldnt be buried. This figure was also quite common in the west. But this is not right, so the real is 25.000+ but not over 30.000.
(Source of this: I know some people who are member in a comission of historians in Dresden, who have the order to research the dead figure. BTW i live in DD since 28 years This is a link to the "Kommission" http://www.dresden.de/ger/02/10/05/c...98c1f90c746a95)

What about the higher figures?
250.000 comes from Propaganda Ministerium (adding a 0)
over 200.000 comes from a german army Major, he was "Adjudant" of the Commanding general in Dresden. He tells his story (and the dead figure) in the 1970s, but all his statings are wrong, including the locations and weapons of the german defense sites in Dresden (was his task in 1945)!
"The final report of the Höhere SS and Polizeiführer dated 22 March 1945", is an falsification of David Irving (is proved by a court). Indeed the report counted 20.204 dead. (Source: http://www.holocaustdenialontrial.or...ns005.asp#5.2d)

For all who interested german wikipedia article about Dresden 1945 is recommened.

[VtwinVince]

I would go with Klaus on this one. Dresden was absolutely packed with refugees when the raid took place. Most of the victims came under the category of "Im Osten verschollen", disappeared in the east. I have talked with a survivor of the raid, whose entire family was incinerated. After hearing firsthand what happened, the low estimates of casualties become ludicrous and an affront to the memory of the dead. My father was in Cottbus during the raid, and the ground was shaking there during the raid on Dresden.