FAA victories

[keith A]

Hiya,

I have been creating a database of Fleet Air Arm victories using a number of sources. I have attached these to this message. Please feel free to look at, download or comment on these. I have had to make an informed judgement on the claimants to many of the victories (especially those in the Pacific) so feel free to disagree if you have better information. All contributions are very welcome.

Keith

[phasselgren]

Hi Keith,

Thanks for sharing this information. I have one comment regarding the claim on 05.05.45. One of the involved pilots Ian F. Stirling, RNZNVR is mentioned in the official history of the RNZN in WWII.

"About 7.30 a.m. four Corsairs belonging to the Formidable, but which had spent the night in the Victorious, spotted a high-flying snooper and chased it for 300 miles. The aircraft was finally overhauled about 80 miles from the fleet and shot down from 30,000 feet by Sub-Lieutenant (A) Ian Stirling, of 1842 Squadron, a remarkable feat that earned him the commendation of Admirals Rawlings and Vian and the subsequent award of the Distinguished Service Cross."

If this book is correct he should belong to 1842 Sqn but Victorious is correct for this engagement.

Cheers
Peter

[gian paolo]

Originally Posted by keith A

Hiya,

I have been creating a database of Fleet Air Arm victories using a number of sources. I have attached these to this message. Please feel free to look at, download or comment on these. I have had to make an informed judgement on the claimants to many of the victories (especially those in the Pacific) so feel free to disagree if you have better information. All contributions are very welcome.

Keith

Hi Keith

On 15/8/1945 the Seafires of 887 and 894 SQ's from HMS Indefatigable

claimed 8 ZEKE + 4 dam , while Avengers ( 820 SQ )

claimed 1 more in what was probably the last air combat

of wwii

If you are interested I can give you more details


All the best

gian paolo

[keith A]

Hi Gian Paolo,

I should have put in the details for the Seafires combat, sheer forgetfulness. Their opponents on this date were A6M5c of 302nd Kokutai which lost 4 Zeroes and their pilots.

[JoeB]

Originally Posted by keith A

I should have put in the details for the Seafires combat, sheer forgetfulness. Their opponents on this date were A6M5c of 302nd Kokutai which lost 4 Zeroes and their pilots.

Hata/Izawa "Japanese Naval Aces and Fighter Units in World War II" says the 4 Raiden and 8 Zeroes of the 302nd met "6 Grummans" that morning, claiming 1 but losing 4, type not given. Tillman in "Hellcat" gives a combat that morning in which a division of VF-6 F6F's claimed "at least" 1 Zeke and 2 Jacks without loss, in combat with a mixed formation of 7; also one where VF-88 F6F's were jumped by Japanese fighters after the US ceasefire order (they said), losing 4 F6F's; that latter seems a less likely match than the first.

Per Tillman, and Brown in "Carrier Operations of WWII Vol 1 The Royal Navy", those USN missions and the FAA Seafires respectively were both on dawn strikes. The BPF cancelled further strikes at 0700 says Brown.

I saw a website with a painting of the Seafires giving the source matching it to 302nd's combat as Mark Huggins (a name I recognize as author of articles on the JNAF), but no discussion of the other possibilities. Do you know the specific info, perhaps uncovered since the books I mentioned, that allows certainty in making this match?

Edit: adding another source, Frank Olynyk's list of USN victories gives if I count correctly 25 destroyed claims by USN fighters v Japanese ones August 15, by VF-31, VF-49 and other elements of VF-88 besides the two combats in Tillman (the VF-88 claims are 'near Atsugi a/f' over which Hata/Izawa says the 302nd fought). All are in the time window 0545-0720. Needless to say, these and the FAA claims don't necessarily all compete for credit for just those 4 302nd AG planes; there's no complete source of Japanese air ops in that period AFAIK and several of the claims are against JAAF types (though the specific type claimed doesn't seem to mean a whole lot in cases that have been definitively matched).

Joe

[gian paolo]

Originally Posted by JoeB

Hata/Izawa "Japanese Naval Aces and Fighter Units in World War II" says the 4 Raiden and 8 Zeroes of the 302nd met "6 Grummans" that morning, claiming 1 but losing 4, type not given. Tillman in "Hellcat" gives a combat that morning in which a division of VF-6 F6F's claimed "at least" 1 Zeke and 2 Jacks without loss, in combat with a mixed formation of 7; also one where VF-88 F6F's were jumped by Japanese fighters after the US ceasefire order (they said), losing 4 F6F's; that latter seems a less likely match than the first.

Per Tillman, and Brown in "Carrier Operations of WWII Vol 1 The Royal Navy", those USN missions and the FAA Seafires respectively were both on dawn strikes. The BPF cancelled further strikes at 0700 says Brown.

I saw a website with a painting of the Seafires giving the source matching it to 302nd's combat as Mark Huggins (a name I recognize as author of articles on the JNAF), but no discussion of the other possibilities. Do you know the specific info, perhaps uncovered since the books I mentioned, that allows certainty in making this match?

Edit: adding another source, Frank Olynyk's list of USN victories gives if I count correctly 25 destroyed claims by USN fighters v Japanese ones August 15, by VF-31, VF-49 and other elements of VF-88 besides the two combats in Tillman (the VF-88 claims are 'near Atsugi a/f' over which Hata/Izawa says the 302nd fought). All are in the time window 0545-0720. Needless to say, these and the FAA claims don't necessarily all compete for credit for just those 4 302nd AG planes; there's no complete source of Japanese air ops in that period AFAIK and several of the claims are against JAAF types (though the specific type claimed doesn't seem to mean a whole lot in cases that have been definitively matched).

Joe

Hi Joe


H. Sakaida - Imperial Japanese Navy Aces 1937-45 - reports a combat

between VF-88 F6F and 302 KU A6M/J2M near Atsugi confirmed in an article on Flight Journal by Tillman . 6 F6F vs 12 Japanese ( HATA/IZAWA :
6 Grummans vs 8 A6M + 4 J2M ) claim 9 zeke/jacks for 4 losses (HATA/IZAWA admitting 4 Japanese losses as well )

VF-6 claimed 1 A6M + 2 J2M in the same area as did the FAA seafires

Did they fight different sections of the 302 KU or other IJNAF units ?

Best regards

gian paolo

[JoeB]

Originally Posted by gian paolo

H. Sakaida - Imperial Japanese Navy Aces 1937-45 - reports a combat

between VF-88 F6F and 302 KU A6M/J2M near Atsugi confirmed in an article on Flight Journal by Tillman . 6 F6F vs 12 Japanese ( HATA/IZAWA :
6 Grummans vs 8 A6M + 4 J2M ) claim 9 zeke/jacks for 4 losses (HATA/IZAWA admitting 4 Japanese losses as well )

VF-6 claimed 1 A6M + 2 J2M in the same area as did the FAA seafires

Did they fight different sections of the 302 KU or other IJNAF units ?

I think we're saying basically the same thing. Four F6F squadrons, VF's 6, 31, 49 and 88, made fighter claims in the same general area and time window as the Seafire claims (times in US records ~ time given in Brown of FAA strikes). VF-6 and VF-88 seem the most likely matches to the apparently only Japanese account, that of Morioka's flight of the 302nd AG, v 'Grummans'.

Thanks for adding Sakaida. Again the Japanese source there seems to be of or from Morioka. Perhaps Sakaida matched VF-88 based on the locations, 'near Atsugi' in VF-88's official claim, 'over Atsugi' in the Morioka account, reasonable. OTOH VF-88 claimed Franks and Jacks while VF-6 claimed Zekes and Jacks, only 15 minutes earlier and over Sagami Wan, the body of water immediately adjacent to Atsugi a/f (types, times and locations from Olynyk). Morioka's account in Saikada of the wounded F6F pilot, who died before Morioka could visit him, doesn't proves anything IMO: he could have been downed by anybody else, or AAA.

Without a more definitive source (which I hope someone will point out), I don't see how a firm conclusion could be reached. But it seems much more likely the 302nd/Morioka account refers to a combat with F6F's than Seafires, since it says so and plausibly matching F6F claims exist. The Seafires might have engaged any of the other JNAF or JAAF fighter units (mistaking JAAF types for Zekes) based in that general area, seems to me.

Joe