FAA victories

[gian paolo]

Originally Posted by JoeB

Hata/Izawa "Japanese Naval Aces and Fighter Units in World War II" says the 4 Raiden and 8 Zeroes of the 302nd met "6 Grummans" that morning, claiming 1 but losing 4, type not given. Tillman in "Hellcat" gives a combat that morning in which a division of VF-6 F6F's claimed "at least" 1 Zeke and 2 Jacks without loss, in combat with a mixed formation of 7; also one where VF-88 F6F's were jumped by Japanese fighters after the US ceasefire order (they said), losing 4 F6F's; that latter seems a less likely match than the first.

Per Tillman, and Brown in "Carrier Operations of WWII Vol 1 The Royal Navy", those USN missions and the FAA Seafires respectively were both on dawn strikes. The BPF cancelled further strikes at 0700 says Brown.

I saw a website with a painting of the Seafires giving the source matching it to 302nd's combat as Mark Huggins (a name I recognize as author of articles on the JNAF), but no discussion of the other possibilities. Do you know the specific info, perhaps uncovered since the books I mentioned, that allows certainty in making this match?

Edit: adding another source, Frank Olynyk's list of USN victories gives if I count correctly 25 destroyed claims by USN fighters v Japanese ones August 15, by VF-31, VF-49 and other elements of VF-88 besides the two combats in Tillman (the VF-88 claims are 'near Atsugi a/f' over which Hata/Izawa says the 302nd fought). All are in the time window 0545-0720. Needless to say, these and the FAA claims don't necessarily all compete for credit for just those 4 302nd AG planes; there's no complete source of Japanese air ops in that period AFAIK and several of the claims are against JAAF types (though the specific type claimed doesn't seem to mean a whole lot in cases that have been definitively matched).

Joe

Hi Joe


H. Sakaida - Imperial Japanese Navy Aces 1937-45 - reports a combat

between VF-88 F6F and 302 KU A6M/J2M near Atsugi confirmed in an article on Flight Journal by Tillman . 6 F6F vs 12 Japanese ( HATA/IZAWA :
6 Grummans vs 8 A6M + 4 J2M ) claim 9 zeke/jacks for 4 losses (HATA/IZAWA admitting 4 Japanese losses as well )

VF-6 claimed 1 A6M + 2 J2M in the same area as did the FAA seafires

Did they fight different sections of the 302 KU or other IJNAF units ?

Best regards

gian paolo

[JoeB]

Originally Posted by gian paolo

H. Sakaida - Imperial Japanese Navy Aces 1937-45 - reports a combat

between VF-88 F6F and 302 KU A6M/J2M near Atsugi confirmed in an article on Flight Journal by Tillman . 6 F6F vs 12 Japanese ( HATA/IZAWA :
6 Grummans vs 8 A6M + 4 J2M ) claim 9 zeke/jacks for 4 losses (HATA/IZAWA admitting 4 Japanese losses as well )

VF-6 claimed 1 A6M + 2 J2M in the same area as did the FAA seafires

Did they fight different sections of the 302 KU or other IJNAF units ?

I think we're saying basically the same thing. Four F6F squadrons, VF's 6, 31, 49 and 88, made fighter claims in the same general area and time window as the Seafire claims (times in US records ~ time given in Brown of FAA strikes). VF-6 and VF-88 seem the most likely matches to the apparently only Japanese account, that of Morioka's flight of the 302nd AG, v 'Grummans'.

Thanks for adding Sakaida. Again the Japanese source there seems to be of or from Morioka. Perhaps Sakaida matched VF-88 based on the locations, 'near Atsugi' in VF-88's official claim, 'over Atsugi' in the Morioka account, reasonable. OTOH VF-88 claimed Franks and Jacks while VF-6 claimed Zekes and Jacks, only 15 minutes earlier and over Sagami Wan, the body of water immediately adjacent to Atsugi a/f (types, times and locations from Olynyk). Morioka's account in Saikada of the wounded F6F pilot, who died before Morioka could visit him, doesn't proves anything IMO: he could have been downed by anybody else, or AAA.

Without a more definitive source (which I hope someone will point out), I don't see how a firm conclusion could be reached. But it seems much more likely the 302nd/Morioka account refers to a combat with F6F's than Seafires, since it says so and plausibly matching F6F claims exist. The Seafires might have engaged any of the other JNAF or JAAF fighter units (mistaking JAAF types for Zekes) based in that general area, seems to me.

Joe

[gian paolo]

Originally Posted by JoeB

I think we're saying basically the same thing. Four F6F squadrons, VF's 6, 31, 49 and 88, made fighter claims in the same general area and time window as the Seafire claims (times in US records ~ time given in Brown of FAA strikes). VF-6 and VF-88 seem the most likely matches to the apparently only Japanese account, that of Morioka's flight of the 302nd AG, v 'Grummans'.

Thanks for adding Sakaida. Again the Japanese source there seems to be of or from Morioka. Perhaps Sakaida matched VF-88 based on the locations, 'near Atsugi' in VF-88's official claim, 'over Atsugi' in the Morioka account, reasonable. OTOH VF-88 claimed Franks and Jacks while VF-6 claimed Zekes and Jacks, only 15 minutes earlier and over Sagami Wan, the body of water immediately adjacent to Atsugi a/f (types, times and locations from Olynyk). Morioka's account in Saikada of the wounded F6F pilot, who died before Morioka could visit him, doesn't proves anything IMO: he could have been downed by anybody else, or AAA.

Without a more definitive source (which I hope someone will point out), I don't see how a firm conclusion could be reached. But it seems much more likely the 302nd/Morioka account refers to a combat with F6F's than Seafires, since it says so and plausibly matching F6F claims exist. The Seafires might have engaged any of the other JNAF or JAAF fighter units (mistaking JAAF types for Zekes) based in that general area, seems to me.

Joe

Joe


The Seafires may have met the zekes of 252 ku . Searching the web I have found that sections of VF-31 and VF-49 came to the rescue of 4

British torpedo bombers attacked by zekes.

Actually HATA/ IZAWA list 2 pilots of 252 ku KIA under this date and same

area.

Hope this helps

Kind regards

gian paolo

[JoeB]

Originally Posted by gian paolo

The Seafires may have met the zekes of 252 ku . Searching the web I have found that sections of VF-31 and VF-49 came to the rescue of 4

British torpedo bombers attacked by zekes.

Actually HATA/ IZAWA list 2 pilots of 252 ku KIA under this date and same

area.

Thanks again, yes those are the last pilot losses listed in Hata/Izawa. Searching further I found this site in Japanese:
http://www.yokohamaradiomuseum.com/navy3.html
Yokohama radio museum, but an official of the Japanese amateur radio association, Tadahiko Honma, happened to be a pilot of the 304th Hikotai, 252nd Kokutai (AG), then Lt. jg, and was shot down in his Zeke 52 by what as 'later learned' to be a Seafire on August 15, 1945! See his picture and brief story (which babelfishes reasonably clearly from Japanese) at the bottom of the page. What's more, the site mentions a whole book about air combat this day, "八月十五日の空―日本空軍の最後" "Sky of August 15-End of the Japanese Air Force". I'm not a good Japanese reader but I think I'll (edit: try to, it's old and not readily available now that I look) get it and try to fumble through the highlights; but I bet somebody really bilingual has read it and could tell us more.

Joe

[Bruce Lander]

Hi
very interesting information , I have been researching FAA fighter operations for years.
You should note that the SubLt.Haviland-Ellis you note on 12.4.45 & 4.5.45 was in fact E.J.Haviland-Davies ! I had the good fortune to meet Ted in 1980 - he was running a hotel and I believe a shop in Weston-Super-Mare ,a great character sadly he died a couple of years later.

cheers
Bruce Lander