He111 shot down 17 June 1940

[MarkRS]

Hi Robert,

Sorry, I got my Ks and Js mixed up! The first aircraft is the one credited to George Berry as a kill. Apart from the Gruppe number your second aircraft matches Unteroffizier Geffgen's belly landing in Belgium. Are there any more details about this incident?

Mark

[Chris Goss]

Mark: You appear to be going around in circles as you have had this from me already?
Chris

[MarkRS]

Chris,

Just inching towards clarification.
II/KG30 (or 3/KG30 or 5/KG30) sent in 14 aircraft, JU88s
Gravenreuth bombed was shot up by Berry.
Geffgen was shot up by a Morane? and belly landed on his bombs, so he did not drop any.
Stahl dropped his bombs and was not damaged.
Cruger also bombed one of the troop ships.
Some one had their port engine shot out.

If we ignore the Morane reference Goodman could have shot up Geffgen. The story is he watched them piling out of the plane on the ground. That would mean he had to be over Le Culot at the time. Is this feasible?

And I still don't know the details of the He111 over Nancy.

I just keep burrowing away like a dog with a bone until there is no more to find out.

Mark

[Chris Goss]

I am sorry but for me there is too much conjecture and too many ifs buts and maybes. For example, for Goodman being over Le Culot in Belgium, a German held airfield, would have been a foolhardy if not dangerous thing to so. Bottom line is no German aircraft appear to have been shot down although some returned damaged by Flak or fighters with wounded or dead crew. There is nothing so far that is concrete in respect of claims matched with losses

[MarkRS]

I agree 100%. Without reasonable proof, I am not confirming the Goodman Lancastria story. It is absolutely not clear which aircraft he went after and if he actually hit anything. If and when I can get at his logbook, things may be clearer. Maybe not.

So at the moment I am just digging away and speculating. Sometimes that becomes repetative. Sometimes it finds that small piece of information that is the key.

Mark

[robert]

Hi Mark,

there were also French Ms 406 of AC5 in action. The shipping was hit by at least three - overlapping - waves of German bombers.

Regards

Robert

[MarkRS]

Thanks Robert,

All the reports are very confused. It seems to me that the Moranes and the Hurricanes were sharing targets. Berry and a French pilot put in a claim for the same kill which was recorded as an He111 when it looks like they only damaged a Ju88. There was more than one Gruppe in action but only one seems to be recorded. I even have seen an erroneous witness report claiming that a French aircraft attacked the Lancastria! And of course the number of bombs and where they hit are disputed.
The best I can derive is that one stick of 4 bombs hit the ship in pairs and 2 more hit the sea close to the hull. None went down the funnel. Who actually dropped them is a mystery to both sides. The Germans claim heavy flak, but none of them were hit. Witnesses claim that Hurricanes were rare and Moranes non-existant, which we know is not true. All very confusing and unhelpful. I doubt the mystery will ever be solved.

Mark

[Brian]

Hi guys

Just to add to the confusion, I am currently reading Jonathan Fenby's The Sinking of the Lancastria, and he writes:

"A Hurricane fighter flew in with the sun behind it to attack a German plane machine-gunning men in the water.... Having hit the enemy aircraft the Hurricane flew off - its pilot believed to have been George Berry.

"A survivor reported seeing the Luftwaffe plane floating in the water fifty yards from him. The crew stood on the wing as men from the Lancastria shouted 'Murder the bastards!' But one of the Germans brandished a Luger pistol, and the British (survivor?) kept away until he was picked up by a Royal Navy destroyer."

A word appears to be missing from the final sentence!

However, should this account be accurate, it would suggest (a) that the Hurricanes arrived after the sinking (b) that a Luftwaffe machine ditched.

Cheers
Brian

[MarkRS]

Originally Posted by Brian

"A survivor reported seeing the Luftwaffe plane floating in the water fifty yards from him. The crew stood on the wing as men from the Lancastria shouted 'Murder the bastards!' But one of the Germans brandished a Luger pistol, and the British (survivor?) kept away until he was picked up by a Royal Navy destroyer."

Just about to read that book myself. I'm just finishing another two full of eye witness reports. So far none of them mention a German in the drink! When it comes to the aircraft involved most are contradictory as to the number of bombers, the number of bombs that hit, the attendance of the RAF, the type of aircraft etc. One even claimed that the ship was bombed by the French! What is clear is that the "British" were too busy trying not to drown to bother with a downed Jerry.

I think this report is wishful thinking as it is not substantiated by any other, British or German. There were only two destroyers around and neither reported picking up German prisoners.

There are a number of reports of one Hurricane pilot dropping his Mae West to a survivor. It would be nice to find out which pilot that was.

Mark.

[Brian]

Hi Mark

I think the book suggests that the British survivor was picked up by a destroyer, not the German crew!

Keep digging!

Cheers
Brian