photographs of crashed Do17 U5+DA on ebay.

[Bf 110]

Thanks Larry for your statement. I was not aware that only nose band was the unit insignia. So thank you for the clarification.
I've looked on a map. If the caption is right, there are two crash sites in Saargebiet:

1940-05-09, Stabsst./KG 2, Do 17Z, Bei Homburg/Saar, Notlandung infolge Beschuß durch feindliche Jäger. Bruch 80 % (So my line of thought about the damage was totally wrong. )

and

1940-05-18, Stabsst./KG 2, Do 17Z, Bei Rehlingen, Notlandung infolge Motorschaden. Bruch 40 %.

I also searched for churches in the area. I found this in Rehlingen: http://www.gastgeber-eifel.de/bildan...0Siersburg.jpg It looks similar, but difficult to say if this is it.

Kind regards,
Bf 110

[David E. Brown]

Hi Larry,

The various bands seen on Luftwaffe bombers (He 111, Ju 88 and Do 17) in early 1940 were tactical markings used to identify the Gruppe to which they were assigned in their respective Geschwader, and not formal unit insignia / wappen per se:
· Diagonal encircling nose band ahead of the cockpit = KG 2
· Diagonal fuselage band behind the wing trailing edge = KG 54
· Vertical fuselage band behind the wing trailing edge = KG 76
These markings were of varying widths (20-30 cm) and coloured accordingly: blue = Stab, white = I., red = II., yellow = III., blue = IV, green = V.

Photographic evidence suggests that these markings were phased out prior to Barbarossa, though in late 1944 were seen again on a number of Me 262s operating with KG (J) 54. Here, they appeared as a diagonal stripe on the fuselage side from below the windscreen to the wing trailing edge. They too were phased in early April 1945 when they were assigned the blue and white RV karoband.

I might also suggest reviewing Band I of Ulf Balke’s opus on KG 2 for possible additional information on this aircraft and action:

Balke, Ulf, 1990.
Der Luftkrieg in Europa: Die operativen Einsätz des Kampfgeschwaders 2 im Zweiten Weltkrieg.
Bernard & Graefe, Koblenz (2 volumes).

Cheers,

David

PS: I would check my copies for you if I could but am taking a break here at work!

D.

[Horst Weber]

Originally Posted by Bf 110

1940-05-18, Stabsst./KG 2, Do 17Z, Bei Rehlingen, Notlandung infolge Motorschaden. Bruch 40 %.

I also searched for churches in the area. I found this in Rehlingen: http://www.gastgeber-eifel.de/bildan...0Siersburg.jpg It looks similar, but difficult to say if this is it.

Kind regards,
Bf 110

Good evening Matti !

Since I'm very often due to my job in the area , I'd like to say almost certainly, that this incident took place in Rehlingen near Beckingen on the Saar-River, Germany.

The aircraft landed at the Wester banks of the Saar-river, facing it's nose in Western direction.

On photo # 5, you can see in the (closer) background a wooded area from the center to the right edge of the picture. This is a wooded ridge between Sarrfels and Beckingen on the Eastern bank of the Saar-river. The more far away-located hill (center to left edge of the picture) and it's visible houses are from Saarfels amd Menningen.

On photo # 2, you can see much clearer the first houses of Menningen on the higher hill.

On the photo with the ail-section, you can see the church of Rehlingen.

Now go and have a look at Google-Earth !

On my opinion, no doubts, that this Do-17 landed at Rehlingen/Saar.

Best regards !

Horst Weber

[Bf 110]

Although I'm not Matti , I have to say danke Horst for your reply.

Regards,
Bf 110

[Larry Hickey]

Horst, et.al.

Great effort here and my appreciation to all who have helped with this, especially Horst who was able to nail this down definitively. Now if we can get the full W.Nr. of this and the location of the swastica (fin only or tail centered), perhaps even from the seller, we will have everything we need to use this as one of our KG2 color profiles. Anybody got the time or interest to contact the German seller to see if we can get these from the original prints? I'm not fluent in German and this is always a problem for me.

I note David Brown's comments about markings. David, are you saying that the nose band would be green rather than blue. I thought Gruppenstab was green and Geschwaderstab was blue. Am I wrong about this. I have Balke's KG2 books, but have not yet had the material on markings translated.

Regards,

[David E. Brown]

Hi Larry,

You are correct. I was relying on memory and confused the two - correction noted above.

Generally, green 25 and red 23 have the same grey tone in panchromatic prints and hence appear lighter than 70 and 71. The images of this aircraft reveal a rather dark band and letter 'A', which would confirm the use of blue. However, I believe that in rare cases green 25 was used for Kampfgeschwaderstab aircraft for whatever reasons.

I checked Balke and see (Band I, p.457) that this aircraft made a notlandung "bei Rehlingen" with 40% damage, but is dated the 19th. Unfortunately, he lists no information on the aircraft's complete code, werknummer and crew.

Cheers,

David

[Larry Hickey]

David/Matti,

We also carry this in our EOE Luft DB on the 19th:

"May 19, 1940: Stab KG2 Dornier Do17Z. Believed engine damaged in attack by F/O Kain of No. 73 Squadron east of Metz and forced-landed near Rehlingen, Saar, Germany 6.00 a.m. Crew unhurt. Aircraft 40% damaged but repairable."

I don't know why Matti has this on the 18th (typo??). This couldn't be from an NVM as there were apparently no crew casualties. Anybody have a source for crew names on this one?

Regards,

[Chris Goss]

Larry: Of interest I have just won another photo (for a mere Euro) of the same crash which I will make available to the database when it turns up. No codes, markings or Wk Nr I am afraid

[Matti Salonen]

Again I have no explanation to different date. It is not a typo, because I have written in my database a note "GQM: 1940-05-19". Anyway, my date is not yet confirmed, so please stay with GQM date.

Matti

[Bf 110]

Hello gentlemen,

good news. I have contacted the seller. He says, that the W.nr. is 2581 and the swastica is on the fin underneath the W.nr.

Kind Regards,
Bf 110