4 Bü 131 claimed on 2 May 1945 by 130 Squadron

[Allan125]

Hello Christian

Now that you have been supplied confirmation of the Bu131's destroyed by 130 (Punjab) Squadron, and additional information on the Fi156 victims of 41 Squadron, are you able to provide any unit details of either of them please?

cheers

Allan

[RT]

Is it still war or Hunting ??

Remi

[Nick Beale]

Originally Posted by RT

Is it still war or Hunting ??

Remi

German: Jaeger = hunter
French: Chasseur = hunter
USA: Pursuit plane = hunter
Italy: Cacciatore = hunter

A hunt is rarely the same as a fair fight.

[Allan125]

Originally Posted by RT

Is it still war or Hunting ??

Remi

Hello Remi

I would have said that on 2 May '45 it was "business as usual" - with substantial German forces still in being in Denmark, Norway and Czechoslovakia, plus the (mythical) Alpine Redoubt - Allied air and ground forces had no reason to do anything else than keep up the pressure.

The Bu 131's and Fi 156's could have contained senior officers attempting to escape to somewhere more secure?

If you look back to the 125 Wing ORB on page 1 you can clearly see that large amounts of MET were still in existence and also at least one Me 262 and an Ar 234 were still operational in 125 Wing's area, and they probably weren't alone.

cheers

Allan

[C.Moeller]

Hi Allan,

first I have to say sorry for the late reply, but my job and my small son keep me from looking into 12o´clock high frequently ;-)
Please let me thank you very much for sharing this valuable information with me/us.

You wrote:
"...5 aircraft of 130 Squadron on the first patrol saw 4 Buckner 131’s at 0615 hours near LAKE SCHWERIN at zero feet."

This means that 4 (!) Bü 131 have been destroyed on the ground (zero feet), right?!

According to Shores & Thomas's "2nd Tactical Air Force", Vol. 3, p.523f: "...Just after 0600 five Spitfire XIV pilots of 130 Squadron caught five Bu 131 biplane trainers near the Schwerin Lake - possibly returning from a night 'nuisance' raid. In moments four of the five were shot down, two by Fig Off Geoff Lord, one by Flt Sgt B.W.Woodman, and one shared between them..."

So, Shores & Thomas must have made a mistake here?

Unfortunately, I do not know the units these Bü 131 or the other Fi 156 came from, sorry. But I guess they have not been on a combat mission before.

Thank you once again.
Best wishes,
Christian

[C.Moeller]

...just noticed that "zero feet" does not mean "on the ground". (...flying at zero feet...) Sorry, I´m German...
However, it is still not known if these planes have been Bü 131 or Bü 181, because they do not speak about biplanes in the combat report. Or in the other report?

Christian

[Allan125]

Hello Christian

Pleased to have helped you - pity you don't know the units involved on the Luftwaffe side, maybe if not returning from a night "nuisance" raid they were from a training unit in the Wittenburg/Schwerin area?

The 125 Wing ORB refers to "....4 Bucker 131's at 06.15 hours.." so whilst I apologise for the typo in adding an "n" to Bucker I have no idea as to whether it was actually 4, or 5 as in the 130 report.

And, as I wasn't there, I have no idea whether it was at 06.05 or 06.15 and whether they were actually biplanes 131's or monoplane 181's, and I don't have the combat reports (unfortunately)

The actual 130 Squadron ORB record is as follows;

"......At 05.45 hours, 5 of our aircraft took off to patrol Wittenburg. At 06.05 hours, 5 Bu 131's were sighted flying at zero feet near Schwerin Lake, and these were duly attacked by F/O Lord and F/Sgt Woodman the former destroying 2 and the latter 1; a fourth was also destroyed (shared)....." so Thomas & Shores correctly reported what was in the squadron ORB, but absolutely no mention is made of what happened to the 5th one, if it existed??!!

I am presuming that it was a typo, and 4 was correctly submitted to the 125 Wing scribe verbally for his precis of the day's Wing operations as I am sure somebody senior would have asked what happened to no. 5?

If you need any more information about 125 Wing's activities at that time feel free to drop me an e-mail at allan(dot)hillman(at)btinternet(dot)com.

cheers

Allan

p.s. no apology needed "Sorry, I´m German..." as your written English is better than my German!!

[C.Moeller]

Hi Allan,

thank you very much, you are welcome.
My interest in the Bü 131/181 is because my new book is about the Panzerjäger Bü 181 units and Nachtschlachtkommandos.

Meanwhile, I have tried to find out more about the units which have been stationed around Schwerin at that time.

Biplanes might have come from NSGr. 8 or 4./NSGr. 5 (if Bü 131 might have been mixed with Ar 66 and/or Go 145):
NSGr. 8 was at Parchim until 2 May 1945, then Kaltenkirchen and finally Eggebek (20km S Flensburg). On 19 April they still had 34/33 Ju 87, 8/6 Go 145 and 3/2 Ar 66 (Go 145 and Ar 66 to 3./NSGr. 8). In Eggebek just one Ar 66, but 27 Ju 87 have been found.
Also, most probably 4./NSGr. 5 was operating under NSGr. 8. On 16 April 1945 this squadron had 9/8 Go 145 and 7/4 Ar 66. The last information about their location I have is dated 23 March 1945: Neuhardenberg.

Additionally, 1. Panzerfauststaffel Bü 181 was located in Parchim on 30 April, then Ludwigslust, Kaltenkirchen and finally Eggebek.
Nachtschlachtkommando 4 (Bü 181) was set up around 26 March 1945 in Schwerin at FFS A72 (the school was dissolved from March 1945 on). They probably moved to Grossenbrode around 30 April 1945.
Also, Nachtschlachtkommando 2 (Ar 96) moved from Celle to Schwerin on 9 April 1945. Around 30 April 1945 they moved to Warnemünde.

Regarding the Fi 156:
Oberst Helbig, Commodore of the Lehrgeschwader 1, on 30 April 1945 was ordered by the 14th Flieger Division to take over a commando of ten Fi 156 on the airport Schwerin-Görries. They should fly to Berlin in the night to 1 May 1945 and rescue important documents and couriers. Helbig later reported that a landing in Berlin was not possible because the visibility was too poor, so he returned to Schwerin via Perleberg. He never heard anything about the other pilots (see Taghon, Peter: History of Lehrgeschwaders 1, Vol. 2: 1942-1945, 1. edition, Zweibrücken/Germany 2004, p. 435-437).

Well, this is all I can contribute at the moment.

Best regards,

Christian

[Allan125]

Hi Christian

Many thanks for the excellent write-up from a Luftwaffe perspective - quite a fair exchange for the information from Steve Brew and myself.

I would tend to think that the Bu 131's and Fi 156's came from some of the units that you have mentioned.

cheers

Allan

[Stig Jarlevik]

Guys

With regard to the option Bu 131 or Bu 181 I think the aspect in itself is wrong. What the pilot actually identifies initially is that this is a biplane. His next thought regarding type is what comes into his mind. As far as I am concerned the important thing is that what he/they see in this case are biplanes. I don't think anyone (us included) would have had the time to contemplate it this was Bu 131, Ar 66 or Go 145 or possibly something else. The pilot(s) choses what he thinks is relevant and a type he would be familliar with and also a type that is "on his lips" for better of for worth.
Once your mind is set, nothing will change that....

Cheers
Stig